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Ticket's in the mail: Red-light cameras questioned

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by Rocket River, Mar 27, 2009.

  1. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    I hate these things. These are just a new way to funnel our money into private industry while the city overall benefits little from it - Rocket River



    http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090313/ap_on_hi_te/red_light_cameras_2


    Ticket's in the mail: Red-light cameras questioned (AP)





    CLIVE, Iowa - Minutes after Neel Manglik illegally turned right on a red light in the Des Moines suburb of Clive, a video popped up on a computer at an office park outside Scottsdale, Ariz.

    The $75 citation arrived in the mail weeks later, making Manglik one of the millions of Americans ticketed as part of a growing industry that is making handsome profits for companies that operate video cameras at busy intersections throughout the nation.

    As more cities sign up and others invest their profits into more cameras, those companies expect increased revenue for years to come.

    What's less clear is whether the cameras improve safety. While studies show fewer T-bone crashes at lights with cameras and fewer drivers running red lights, the number of rear-end crashes increases.

    Aaron Quinn, spokesman for the Wisconsin-based National Motorists Association, said there are cheaper safety alternatives to red-light cameras, including lengthening yellow-light times.

    "We say, the red-light camera wouldn't have stopped anyone from getting hit," Quinn said. "Once (a city) sees one city getting it miles away, and that first city makes a bunch of money, they want to do it, too. It's like a virus."

    Albany, Ore., population 48,000, issued 1,119 traffic camera tickets for $77,200 in 2008. By comparison, in 2006 only 4,000 tickets were issued for all traffic infractions.

    In St. Peters, Mo., a city of 55,000, red-light cameras resulted in 3,203 tickets issued from January 2007 to September 2008, and drew a total of $235,973. The city issued 14,836 traffic tickets in fiscal year 2006, but that jumped to 21,745 in 2008, the first full fiscal year with the cameras.

    Clive Police Chief Robert Cox said there's no doubt the cameras are a cheaper option than having an officer on the street.

    "With the number of calls for service our city generates, we can't devote that much time to red-light enforcement," Cox said. "We were missing a lot of violations."

    But not all cities make money off of the tickets. Contracts between companies and cities can affect how much money the cities get.

    In Clive, for instance, the red-light camera program generated $39,548.65 between July 2006 and March 2007, but all of that money went to the camera company because Clive didn't ticket enough drivers in any single month to make money. Clive has since changed its contract and now gets a percentage of each ticket.

    The largest red-light camera company, Redflex Traffic Systems of Scottsdale, operates red-light or speed cameras in 22 states, and added 79 cities last year. It signed a $32 million maintenance contract with Chicago last fall, and in just the last three weeks of last year, Redflex added five new cities.

    Redflex saw net, after-tax profits of $10.6 million in fiscal year 2008, up from $7.3 million the year before.

    That ticket in Clive shows why: More than half of the $75 fine went to Redflex.

    "That's ridiculous," said Ashok Manglik, a physician who paid his wife's ticket. "Why should it go to the camera company? At least 90 percent should go to the city."

    Some cities, such as Orlando and Atlanta, put all the money back into the program so they don't profit from issuing tickets.

    "It was a concern," said Mike Rhodes, manager of the Orlando's Code Enforcement Division. "Without casting aspersions on vendors, we didn't want to be seen as having any incentive to issue these tickets."

    Plenty of people have been getting tickets in Orlando.

    The city issued 785 "failure to obey a traffic signal" tickets — their equivalent of a red-light violation — between Sept. 1, 2007, and Dec. 31, 2007. But after the cameras were installed in September 2008, Orlando issued 8,250 tickets through its red-light camera program during that four-month period.

    The Clive ticket demonstrates how the system works:

    A Redflex camera spotted the violation by Manglik, then sent a video to an employee in Arizona who trained for a week to recognize violations. The employee checked municipal laws and approved the initial violation, and the video was then passed to another Redflex worker, who checked the vehicle against a motor-vehicle database to see if the car and tags match. A third employee approved the final evaluation and alerted an officer in Clive, who made the ticket official.

    Clive police approve more than 90 percent of violations passed on by Redflex, excluding obvious mistakes such as ambulances and funeral processions. Redflex encourages cities to use signs and provides them to its customers.

    "There's very few rejected because it's reviewed three or four times by Redflex," Clive police Lt. Gary Walker said.

    The camera companies, participating cities and nonprofit Insurance Institute of Highway Safety, a group funded by auto insurers, argue that the cameras save lives and ultimately cut costs. They estimate the cameras save about $14 billion annually, largely by reducing emergency-room trips, lowering insurance rates and cutting medical bills.

    "I say if you sell fire extinguishers or smoke detectors or bulletproof vests that save police officers' lives and you can make a buck off this, God bless you," said Richard A. Retting, a former senior transportation engineer and lead researcher who left the Insurance Institute of Highway Safety in September. "How communities work out the details of those finances is up to them."

    A 2005 study by the Federal Highway Safety Administration found that after installation of red-light cameras, right-angle or T-bone crashes dropped 28 percent, while rear-end crashes climbed 8 percent.

    The researchers found that with property damage included, each site saw a $40,000 per year drop in damage.

    Retting said there's no debate that the cameras cut down on red-light running but that their effect on crash severity is less certain.

    In Clive, one of the cameras was responsible for giving Richard Tarlton his first ticket in more than 60 years of driving. But the 76-year-old said that as long as the cameras help police become more efficient, he's all for it.

    "If the policemen use their time and do police work, that's great," Tarlton said. "If it's giving them an extra doughnut and coffee break, then I'm not for it."
     
  2. Coach AI

    Coach AI Member

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    Just don't run a red light.

    Problem solved.
     
  3. ClutchCityReturns

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    Yep.

    Some may disagree with where the money goes, but I think it's pretty immature to disagree with the overall concept.
     
  4. halfbreed

    halfbreed Member

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    People disagree with the overall concept not only because of the money but also because it's making streets less safe. Many of the red light camera intersections have reduced the yellow light time which has led to more accidents.
     
  5. mrpaige

    mrpaige Member

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    I can bet that Ryan Moats wishes there had been a camera at that intersection in Dallas instead of that cop.
     
  6. rhino17

    rhino17 Member

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    I don't know how anyone can disagree with red light cameras. You simply don't run a red light, simple as that. I trust the cameras more that a cop's so called "judgement"
     
  7. YallMean

    YallMean Member

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    On the face the red light camera is a nice enforcement of traffic rules, but is it really effective in general deterring people from running red light?

    Also, when you have a machine enforce traffic rules, doors are open for errors. I have seen red light camera go crazy catching people making right turns, where such is not prohibited. I have seen lights flashing when it is not supposed to. One may say what's the big deal, just fight off the ticket when you believe there is a mistake. First there is stress when you get a ticket that you don't deserve because you get harassed frivolously. Second, don't necessarily remember what they did or didn't do, and we all tend to pay even if we think there might be doubt.

    If technology permits, should we deploy robo-cops to enforce law for the same arguments favoring a machine enforcing traffic rules? That would be crazy, wouldn't it?
     
  8. macalu

    macalu Member

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    i don't disagree that people should not run red lights. i do however, disagree that these cameras make intersections safer. if they really cared about safety, they would lengthen the yellow light for an extra second or two or add a second or two delay to the intersecting traffic.

    i have to pass one of these red light cameras every day on my home from work at the corner of scott and 610. every time i either rush through b/c it's green or slam on my brakes b/c it's turned yellow a few feet before i reach the intersection. all b/c i don't want a ticket. i don't find that safe for the driver in front of me nor the one behind.
     
  9. YallMean

    YallMean Member

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    It was hassle for me too to pass through an intersection with a redlight camera everyday morning. Definitely it doesn't make the road safer.
    It's not because I want to run the light, but rather because the mechanical way the camera runs and the uncertain duration of yellow light.

    A timer with how many seconds left on the green, yellow would be a much better way to solve the running light problem. Not everybody that runs the light because they want to break traffic rules.
     
  10. Oski2005

    Oski2005 Member

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    They have video cameras too, so if you don't remember what happened, you can go to a website that is listed on the ticket and find the video of your infraction.

    I will say that its kind of annoying that it's a company that seems to be running these cameras. My sister got one and the point of origin of the letter was Arizona.
     
  11. Coach AI

    Coach AI Member

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    Holy crap please tell me you are kidding here. If not, the drivers around you not being safe doesn't have anything to do with the cameras man.
     
  12. droxford

    droxford Member

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    Where do we draw the line?

    Phoenix, AZ has speed cameras and HOV lane cameras.

    Should there also be cameras at stop signs to check to make sure you came to a complete stop?

    Sure - you can say, "Just don't run red lights"...

    Can you say, "Just never speed" ?
    "Never roll through a stop sign" ?
    "Never block an intersection" ?

    At what point are we going to say, "Hey - I don't like having big brother watch me all the time" ?

    By the time we say it, will it be too late?
     
     
  13. rhino17

    rhino17 Member

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    that is the worst argument against it imo. I can understand the yellow light thing and that it may actually be safer to run the red light at times instead of coming to an abrupt stop. (maybe a countdown system could work, idk). But your argument is a joke.
     
  14. rpr52121

    rpr52121 Sober Fan
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    The only way to make red lights truly effective and safer is to 1) make all yellow lights last the same amount of time and 2) show a actually number so you know how long you really have before red lights. It is basically what they have now for most crosswalks. Just 10 yrs none had countdowns to help you gauge how long you had, now more than 50% of them I see have those. Then with that, you can still add the red light camera.
     
  15. Astro101

    Astro101 Member

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    Ditto. Pretty weak argument. All those examples are...illegal. So I don't really care about a slippery slope there. Probably because I do stop completely at all stop signs and never have blocked an intersection. Can't risk the ticket. $$$
     
  16. Luckyazn

    Luckyazn Member

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    The village of Schaumburg, Ill., installed a camera at Woodfield Mall last November to film cars that were running red lights, then used the footage to issue citations. Results were astonishing. The town issued $1 million in fines in just three months.

    But drivers caught by the unforgiving enforcement -- which mainly snared those who didn't come to a full stop before turning right on red -- exploded in anger. Many vowed to stop shopping at the mall unless the camera was turned off. The village stopped monitoring right turns at the intersection in January.

    Once a rarity, traffic cameras are filming away across the country. And they're not just focusing their sights on red-light runners. The latest technology includes cameras that keep tabs on highways to catch speeders in the act and infrared license-plate readers that nab ticket and tax scofflaws.

    View Full Image

    Associated Press
    Vehicles drive past a speed surveillance and ticketing camera on a road heading into downtown in Cleveland, Ohio, earlier this month. The cameras measure the speed of passing motorists and make a photo of the car's license plate so the city can mail a speeding ticket to the offending driver.
    Drivers -- many accusing law enforcement of using spy tactics to trap unsuspecting citizens -- are fighting back with everything from pick axes to camera-blocking Santa Clauses. They're moving beyond radar detectors and CB radios to wage their own tech war against detection, using sprays that promise to blur license numbers and Web sites that plot the cameras' locations and offer tips to beat them.

    Cities and states say the devices can improve safety. They also have the added bonus of bringing in revenue in tight times. But critics point to research showing cameras can actually lead to more rear-end accidents because drivers often slam their brakes when they see signs warning them of cameras in the area. Others are angry that the cameras are operated by for-profit companies that typically make around $5,000 per camera each month.

    "We're putting law enforcement in the hands of third parties," says Ryan Denke, a Peoria, Ariz., electrical engineer who has started a Web site, Photoradarscam.com, to protest the state's speed cameras. Mr. Denke says he hasn't received a ticket via the cameras.

    Protests over the cameras aren't new, but they appear to be rising in tandem with the effort to install more. Suppliers estimate that there are now slightly over 3,000 red-light and speed cameras in operation in the U.S., up from about 2,500 a year ago. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety says that at the end of last year, 345 U.S. jurisdictions were using red-light cameras, up from 243 in 2007 and 155 in 2006.

    One traffic-cam seller, Arizona-based American Traffic Solutions Inc., recently reported it had installed its 1,000th camera, with 500 more under contract in 140 cities and towns. Rival Redflex Holdings Ltd. says it had 1,494 cameras in operation in 21 states at the end of 2008, and expects to top 1,700 by the end of this year.

    Municipalities are establishing ever-more-clever snares. Last month, in a push to collect overdue taxes, the City Council in New Britain, Conn., approved the purchase of a $17,000 infrared-camera called "Plate Hunter." Mounted on a police car, the device automatically reads the license plates of every passing car and alerts the officer if the owner has failed to pay traffic tickets or is delinquent on car taxes. Police can then pull the cars over and impound them.

    New Britain was inspired by nearby New Haven, where four of the cameras brought in $2.8 million in just three months last year. New Haven has also put license-plate readers on tow trucks. They now roam the streets searching for cars owned by people who haven't paid their parking tickets or car-property taxes. Last year 91% of the city's vehicle taxes were collected, up from "the upper 70s" before it acquired the technology, says city tax collector C.J. Cuticello.

    'Smart Intersections' Coming to a Street Near You
    3:16
    WSJ's Stacey Delo explores efforts to develop "smart intersections" which advocates hope can create a better informed driver and safer roads.
    Not that it's been smooth sailing. Mr. Cuticello recalls the time he tried to help tow the car of a woman who owed $536. She knocked him over, jumped in the car and drove away. She was later arrested for a hit-and-run.

    City leaders have generally maintained that while revenue is a welcome byproduct of traffic citations, the laws are in place to improve public safety or reduce accidents.

    But a study in last month's Journal of Law and Economics concluded that, as many motorists have long suspected, "governments use traffic tickets as a means of generating revenue." The authors, Thomas Garrett of the St. Louis Fed and Gary Wagner of the University of Arkansas at Little Rock, studied 14 years of traffic-ticket data from 96 counties in North Carolina. They found that when local-government revenue declines, police issue more tickets in the following year. Officials at the North Carolina Association of Chiefs of Police didn't respond to requests for comment.

    George Dunham, a village trustee in Schaumburg, says installing the red-light camera at the mall "wasn't about the revenue -- no one will believe that, but it wasn't." On the other hand, he says, with fuel taxes and sales taxes falling, its retreat on the camera has had a "painful" impact on Schaumburg's $170 million budget.

    View Full Image

    Associated Press
    An intersection in Jackson, Miss., bears a sign warning drivers that the intersection is being photographed for possible traffic violations.
    Cameras to catch speeders on highways, which are common in Europe, are just starting to spread in the U.S. Last June, Arizona added a provision for speed cams on highways to its budget bill, with an anticipated $90 million in fines expected to help balance the budget.

    State police started placing the cameras on highways around Phoenix in November. In December, a trooper arrested a man in Glendale while he was attacking a camera with a pick ax. In another incident, a troupe of men dressed as Santa Claus toured around the city of Tempe in December and placed gaily wrapped boxes over several traffic cameras, blocking their views. Their exploits have been viewed more than 222,000 times on YouTube.

    Republican state representative Sam Crump has introduced a bill in the legislature to remove the cameras, which he says were approved "in the dead of night...as a budget gimmick."

    In the meantime, the cameras are still being rolled out, and have already issued more than 200,000 violation notices since September. They are set to take a picture of cars going more than 11 miles over the speed limit, and they also photograph the driver.

    Some entrepreneurs are trying to help camera opponents fight back. Phantom Plate Inc., a Harrisburg, Pa., company, sells Photoblocker spray at $29.99 a can and Photoshield, a plastic skin for a license plate. Both promise to reflect a traffic-camera flash, making the license plate unreadable. California passed a law banning use of the spray and the plate covers, which became effective at the beginning of this year.

    A free iPhone application available on Trapster.com lets drivers use their cellphones to mark a traffic cam or speed trap on a Google map. The information on new locales is sent to Trapster's central computer, and then added to the map.

    Other anti-cam Web sites counsel people to examine the pictures that come in the mail with citations. If the facial image is too blurry, they say, drivers can often argue successfully in court that no positive identification has been made of them.

    Studies are mixed on whether traffic cameras improve safety. Some research indicates they may increase rear-end collisions as drivers slam on their brakes when they see posted camera notices. A 2005 Federal Highway Administration study of six cities' red-light cameras concluded there was a "modest" economic benefit because a reduction in side crashes due to less red-light running offset the higher costs of more rear-end crashes.

    A study of crash causes released by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration last July found about 5% of crashes were due to traveling too fast and 2% were from running red lights. Driving off the side of the road, falling asleep at the wheel and crossing the center lines were the biggest causes identified.





    I guess pretty soon we'll all have to drive 65-75 mph on highways :rolleyes:
     
  17. professorjay

    professorjay Member

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    Agreed on the countdown. I don't know if a number will be considered visible and safe enough compared to the normal light, but if it does it seems like a no-brainer.
     
  18. mrpaige

    mrpaige Member

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    If it's a situation where the intersection isn't rigged to maximize ticket revenues, then I don't particularly care, but since we have seen instances where the intersections with cameras weren't producing enough revenue so the yellow light time was lessened to an unsafe amount (I believe the safety standard is at least .5 seconds for every ten MPH, usually based on speed limit) or the cameras were set to issue tickets when drivers were simply over the white line, which, in most cases, is not dangerous at all.

    There have been quite a few studies that have shown that injuries and accidents go up at intersections with red light cameras. As a matter of fact, last I looked, EVERY independent study showed that red light cameras made intersections more dangerous.

    It may be counter-intuitive, but it's just like how, on the highways, sometimes the guy driving the speed limit is the most dangerous car on the road (speed differentials are a leading cause of accidents. So the person going much slower than the flow of traffic can be as dangerous as someone going faster than the flow of traffic).

    The purported purpose of red light cameras is to increase safety. If the independent studies show that's not the result, then they should probably be removed. They certainly shouldn't be rigged to maximize ticket revenue (and, presumably, make the intersections even more dangerous).
     
  19. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    I don't like the cameras. I think they are another manifestation of the creeping trend towards Big Brother by our government. It is yet another example of the eroding of our right to privacy, like the court rulings in recent years (by conservative judges) that have allowed the highway patrol to set up road blocks and conduct "random searches," which is another infringement on our right to privacy (as well as giving the police far too great an opportunity to discriminate against certain segments of the population).

    Hey, I don't make this comment lightly, either. I was hit by a fool running a red light, ended up having to get back surgery, and am in chronic pain because of it. The idiot was in a hurry to get to Target. He freely admitted it at the scene. What happened to him? A ticket for running a red light and his insurance probably went up. A camera at the intersection (and there is one there now. this is in southwest Austin) would have made no difference.

    I'm against them.
     
  20. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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    oh rly?

    http://www.thepowerhour.com/news2/license_plates.htm

    So do you REALLY trust the .gov that much?

    Lets just cut to the chase ... install black boxes, gps and wifi in all automobiles.
     

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