There is a belief in coaching circles that almost any system, if followed properly, can succeed. Of course the degree to which the system fits the talent, the degree of talent itself, and the degree to which the system is followed all play a role in a team's success, but there is something to this truism. What we have witnessed thus far into the system has been the aggravating, frustrating oft-times boring process of a coach trying to establish his foundation, the premise being that you do that first, and build from there. I would say that, for the first time, our foundation seems to be setting, the concrete is drying, and we can now begin to build upon it. Of course, Jeff Van Gundy being who he is, that foundation is defense. Another thing every coach will tell you is that they don;t come complete with a pre-set system, but adapt their philosophy to fit the talent their team has...and it's hooey, for the most part. There are very few Larry Brown's in the game, and almost each coach, be he Don Nelson or Jeff Van Gundy has a preference which supercedes the talent of any particular team, and defense is usually it. The reasons defense is the most popular 'system' in the game are many, but these are the primary ones; 1) Defense is less contingent upon specific talent than offense, thus can be most easily adapted to new teams and/or new talent on existing teams. 2) Defense is linked with effort, and effort should be immune to slumps. 3) When teams play consistently tough defense, they usually develop more leeway with the refs, which cannot be said of the reverse. 4) Come playoff time, defense becomes much more intense, theoretically favoring teams who already prioritize same. 5) Defensive teams, even with relatively less talent, can usually keep games pretty close, setting up chances to pull out wins with late game heroics. Now the questions I have for you guys are these: 1. Do you agree with defense as a priority in general? 2. Do you agree with a defensive foundation for the Rockets in particular? 3. Do you think Van Gundy ever considered tailoring the system to fit the talent, or was he set on doing the reverse? While I believe that any system, if followed, will lead to more success than a team would encounter if, as we often have over the past few years, they play without really adhering to one, and while I believe that we are very near the stage where we can begin to build on that foundation, I am unsure if that system is, in the long run, the best for our talent. It might be...certainly IF you consider our future to hinge most particularly on the development of one Yao Ming, the current defensive base allows us to stay competitive while we develop Yao's game...and I do see marked improvment in some other player's defensive games, I am unsure if a slow it down style is what we want, long term, but that is the offensive style that best compliments defense first teams, and the one which we are currently employing. Usually slow it down teams tend to try and do so to compensate for lack of relative talent, and I feel that once Yao develops, we are going to have one of the more dominat players in the league, and he will be supported by some pretty decent talent, especially Francis and Mobley...and I feel that slowing it down might be a disservice to that talent. For one thing, slow it down teams need to prioritize each possession, therefore the guards on successfull slow it down teams are usually A) Very protective of the ball, and B) Very conservative. I am unsure of which current Rockets guard that this apples to. As such, it restricts our guards' downsides ( turnovers) while limiting their upside ( creativity, individual scoring). I am not convicned that this is a net loss, but neither am I convinced that this is, ultimately, the best way to make use of our 2nd and 3rd best talents. What I am suggesting is that it might serve to make us good, but prevent us from being great, and I both want us to be great, and feel that we can. I am interested in your thoughts on the matter...especially in response to the specific questions, or if you want to disagree with any of the points I have outlined.
1. I think our defense is good, and I do think it is a nice priority. JVG has done an excellent job with the defense, and while the offense jelled it allowed the Rocks to win a few games and get a team identity. 2. Yes, see above. 3. I actually think that is what he is doing now, he tried to put YAO on the block almost exclusively and it was wearing him out and he was getting frustrated. The offensive outbreak of late is directly because JVG relented and put Yao at the high post for the high pick and roll as a focus, and instead of being on the block all the time, Yao dives down on the roll portion of the pick. Something a lot of us were screaming for him to do all season....but better late than never. DD PS. MacJag, You and I rarely see eye to eye in D&D but I really enjoy your analysis of our favorite team.
1. More importantly, the Rockets have the talent to be a defensive team. Cato and Yao are cornerstone of a great defense. Mobley, Jackson and Franchise are quick guards that will swarm the perimeter. Only weakness is Jackson is somewhat undersized at SF but with Yao and Cato back there, this defense is solid. JVG's system will maximize the team's effectiveness by emphasizing defense and quality shot. Unfortunately sometimes it's real ugly. 2. As long as YM is here, you have the cornerstone of a very good defense. If he leaves, time to fire JVG. 3. JVG is JVG, Rocket team plays like the Knicks of the 90's. I am surprised the last 3 games how fluid Rocket offense look. Maybe we need a month of Ming averaging 20/10 before we can finally say JVG is adjusting his offense around the talent.
1. There is an old adage that defense wins during te playoffs and ultimately wins championships, and that is true for all major team sports. You see this when the Marlins beat the Yankees, you see this when the Mavs for all their superior talent fail to get past the Spurs last year, and you saw this two years ago when the Patriots beat the Rams. The Spurs win on their tremendous team defense, and before that the Lakers won because they had great individual defenders (Shaq, Kobe) and hard-nosed defenders during the playoffs like Fox. Obviously these teams had good offenses too, but the Kings and Mavs had better offenses and it didn't work out. For the Rockets to win a championship based a shut down defense, they have to have a consistent low post threat like Duncan (which hopefully Yao will develop into) so that points can be scored during grind-it-out 78-76 playoff games. You also need solid shooters like the Spurs had in Ferry, Stephen Jackson, and Kerr to name a few. 2. Yes. Because the Rockets don't have the up-and-down players to run a high octane offense. You need a point guard that can push it, spot up shooters, and a ton of slashers. The teams that have these peices are using offense as foundation. The Rockets have good interior defenders in Yao and Cato, I think the announcer in the Wolves game remarked "there's just no room in the paint to operate against them" (not a direct quote), so as long as the 1,2,3 hustle on perimeter D, we can force a lot of bad shots. 3. This one is more ambiguous. Could he coach an up tempo offense if he had the peices? I don't know. But the Rockets are certainly more suited to his system than Don Nelson's system. As much as I respect Don Nelson and love to watch his teams.
1. Do you agree with defense as a priority in general? No doubt about it. Simple reason, defense wins championship and lots of close games. Defense is the reason we beat the lakers on Christmas and last game against the Wolves. 2. Do you agree with a defensive foundation for the Rockets in particular? I agree and that's the way JVG is doing it. Even though Francis and Mobley still makes boneheaded plays they get to stay in the game because I think JVG is rewarding minutes by the effort you put defensively on the court. I saw the guards chasing people relentlessly through picks, this kind of effort certainly makes a difference especially when the guards still a long way from becoming a championship contending backcourt. 3. Do you think Van Gundy ever considered tailoring the system to fit the talent, or was he set on doing the reverse? Looks like JVG is tailoring the system to fit the talent. It's obvious from the games I watched on TV, Yao clearly is the center piece of this Franchise and they're still a long way to go before becoming a good team with great chemistry. (such as the Kings and the Bulls of 90s) I definitely thinnk that we should develope Yao at his own pace and it's even more important to develop Francis' point guard skill as far as being a good floor general like Jason Kidd. A good point guard is the key piece to unlock this Rocket team that's loaded with potential.
Hmm. I think it's necessary to play at least solid defense, generally to win a championship. However, I ultimately believe that offense is more important to a championship team. I think this for several reasons: 1. Defense is a nullifier. Essentially, teams that are significantly weighted to defense randomize the game. This means that you're seldom going to get blown out (minimizing total possessions, etc)... but also, that you're going to lose some games you shouldn't. OTOH, a team with a great offense is more in control of its own fate, particularly in basketball. There's really only so much a good defense can do. It can contests shots. It can try to force mistakes. But the offense dictates, generally, what actually happens. 2. I think that the overall trend of the league, towards defense, is a result of the fact that fewer players are true threats on offense. Back when more players could hit jump shots easily, the "chess match" went in favor of the offense more. It's much easier to force the defense to give up an open jumper from 18 feet... than it is to force them to give up a lay-up. When you've only got 2 good scorers on the court (as many teams do at times), it's much more difficult to produce a good shot. If you've got the players, then I'd rather go with the O. But if you don't... obviously, better to focus on defense. To be a team that lived by offense, the Rockets need two more shooters. Not great players, but one great shooter... and maybe another guy who can knock down his shots. One would start at SF, and the other would split time with Mobley/Francis. They would also need to bench Cato, except as a back-up C... and they clearly don't have a great full time option at PF, though Mo Taylor isn't terrible. So yes, it's right... for now.
Yes to 1. But only because we were soooooo lacking in both offense and defensive discipline before JVG had arrived. If there was ever a team that needed discipline it was this one. Yes to 2. Because our offensive leader (Francis) wasn't really that offensive. He was wild and loose (He played like he had the ability to score like Iverson; he does not!). Free-style and uncontrolled. And that type of "leader" can never bring you any type of consistency. DEFENSE was implemented because of JVGs philosophy, but also because it allows (like you said) more leeway for Francis to make his mistakes and for Yao to develop; i.e. keeps games close. Yes to 3. JVG is laying the foundation first. Which is the right thing. It was RUDY that tailored the "system" to the teams "talent." And that was the wrong way. The so called "talent" was immature, limited and unpredictable. If you tailored you system to that type of "talent" you get a wild and woolly offense; hence the four years prior to JVG taking over. And because the DEFENSE was lacking too, there no way that an undisciplined offense could offer much consistency on getting wins. I mean, hell! There wasn't even a defense to offer any buffer zone. I didn't even like the way that Rudy used Barkley and Pippen. He just let them ISO. Because they were inherently so damn good in the first place, it carried us to wins. But still. No structure. That was one of the main reasons that Pippen was upset with Rudy system. So, to repeat: Rudy tailored the system to the talent (Find out what the player can already do, then let them do that most of the time). JVG tailored the talent to the system (Teach them passing, cutting and shooting fundamentals within his system). As far as being only good, rather than great. Well, that all depends on the players you have. The coach lays the ground work, and the players, depending on how knowledgeable and fast they learn will push the system as far it can go. Great players can ADAPT to any system. Macbeth....also note... As Yao develops, JVG will start to adjust the system in order to take advantage of Yao's new found abilities. The system is not static. JVG can change it over time depending on ones development and roster. As far as the Knicks history... Remember too that JVG took over the Knicks when Ewing was on his way down (injury)...JVG never had a team with a real leader. Not really. Spreewell, Houston, L. Johnson? Who was the "go to man?" JVG has both Ewing and Yao this time! Heh!
The reason that we were struggling on offense was because Francis, Mobley and Yao were having a hard time picking it up (for different reasons). They were learning it. It was difficult for them because Francis and Mobley were used to the playground style. And Yao because of the strength and conditioning he needed. I mean, MacBeth. Do you honestly believe that Francis and Mobley would achieve a higher scoring game if we had the Kings system or LA's system? I think not. We'd still have Francis and Mobely. They'd still have to learn that system, and those systems are even more difficult to learn than JVG's pick and roll. We'd still be suffering from a learning curve. Imagine the look on Francis's face if he was to look over one of Tex Winters Triangle Offense play books (or Pete Carril)! He'd have a heart attack! Yao Ming would be able to learn the Triagle or Five-man faster than Francis or Mobley. But Yao's problem would still exist too; lack of strength, speed and aggressiveness.
Back at you, DD...and agree that, short term, loosening the reigns on Yao will help, but he's gonna have to get the low block stuff down at some point.
I think in basketball, defense is important but offense will always be the winning factor. Van Gundy learned this the hard way with the Knicks. I remember he tried to do all sorts of stuff to try to beat Michael Jordan. It was futile because the Knicks were just so bad offensively. Then he encountered the Spurs who have a dominant player in Tim Duncan. There are currently two players in this league who are considered dominant meaning they win championships not because of their team but because of themselves. That's Shaq and Duncan. The only way I see a team in this league has chance of dethroning the Lakers and Spurs is to have a offense that flows so well that it is like a machine. Kings have that. The Kings do not have a dominant player like Shaq or Duncan, but they play almost as one on the court which sort of mimics a dominant player. Defense can only get you so far, but offense finishes the deal. Hakeem was a bad MFer on defense, but it was his Dream Shake that got the deal done. Van Gundy saw that from the sidelines when he was Knicks assistant. If the Rockets do not play like an offensive machine which they are not even close, they will always get killed by the great teams when all is said and done.
Our Tim Duncan is Yao Ming. Yes, JVG has learned. That's why he came here. Not because of Francis. The trio of Houston, Spree and Johnson were not better than the duo of Duncan, Robinson, and Elliott. Duncan was the leader of that series. Lets hope that Yao is that leader.
1) This is an oft repeated maxim, and I agree that no team wins a championship with being at least good at both ends of the court, but I'm not sure that the statement is as accurate upon closer inspection. Neither the Lakers nor the Celtics of the 60's were built around defense...the Bulls usually ranked higher in the league in scoring than in defense, I believe. WHat basis do you have for believing this to be true? 2) What games did you see? In most games this season, I come away thinking Yao should be the centerpiece, but in very few has that been the case.
If with Charvo. You have to have an unstoppable force. There are no champions that just kinda scored ok, sometimes. Every champ has a legend that kills the opposition. It's not just making the opponent score 1 less than you. You have to score and score. Our weapon should be Yao in the high post. Shooting over, or, please please please, let Yao develop the skyhook. That would be a thing of beauty. IF the Rockets could enable Yao in the high post and he could get them easy buckets on cuts, they can use the defense to play with anyone. IF they just plod with no direction on O, they suck.
Defense wins championships today more than ever... Offense puts you an opportunity to win it no matter what era you are in... The mentality of the 60's was, "Scoring on me is not that big deal. I can score on you too!" Fast moving and fast breaking. The mentality of the 80's was, "I can score on you, and to make it harder I can also stop you at the end of the game." Fast moving, but also half-court. The mentality of the 90's was, "If I cant score, I wont let you score either." Half-court. Ugly ball because players were coming out early lacked team ball knowledge. Passing skill from our "stars" went out the window! The Bulls and Lakers were the exception to this rule. They actually had a two players that could score at will: Jordan and Shaq.
great to see someone else remember this, i mean it is great to see Yao step out from the low block to the high post and further and knock down a few jumpers and flash cut for the post up, but damn the guy is 7-6 and should be scoring a fair chunk of his pts from the low block 1. Balance is the key 60-40 (or even 55-45) maybe in terms of importance in favour of defense .... detroit last year is a good example of grat defense, but a horrible offense that not matter how much the D stopped the opposition they could never make it a double punch and score at the other end when they needed to and that is what Brown is trying to fix this year..... superstars help alot of course 2. Defense had to be a priority, last years was a complete joke, they could never get a stop when they needed it, now this is possible. In part because the leader didn't play and also because Yao is not the Dream goalkeeper/saver/swatting defender we all hoped he would be. Focussing so strongly on defense also took the pressure off the offense and gave them more time to work on gelling, ball and player movement. the mess that everyone was complaining about earlier in the season is now what is starting to click and gel. 3. His system is definitely different to his Knicks system as a result of custumising it to fit the Rockets roster...... not sure his defensive system is that special to JVG, he even says that himself.... the wrinkle is he adjusting to the poor shooting trend round the league and sagging and switching on the perimeter a hell of alot. in short of course he tailors to his players, his general concept is to play D and rebound, he has been quoted on that, and on offense the sets certainly are custumised to the players he has........ I mean everyone had JVG pigeon holed to play slow down offense, this is the same JVG who consistently runs the sideline telling the players to push it up, this is a great example of him custumising to suit the rockets whippets on the roster... not sure how getting them to play better D, move the ball, move players, run some nice sets with picks, trying to encourage a transition game and teaching Steve to be a better decision maker, while at the same time trying to improve a Chinese giant with 82 games experience in elite basketball is going to stop us from acheiving greatness for me JVG has put us a right path.......
This is true. But watch out for the Kings. The Knicks did it in 70. But yes. The "unstoppable force" is the common method. Shaq Duncan Hakeem Jordan Isiah (more collective effort - defense)
Defense wins championships is a vague statement. The fact of the matter is Championship teams know when they need to put the clamps down, and when they decide to do it, they can do it to any team in the league. Look at the Spurs, Lakers, Rockets, Pistons, and Bulls. All these teams could score fairly easily, but when the time came to lock a team down, they did it regardless of the opposition. I'm trying to say that we need to go through this season of JVG's defense-only style so the team learns WHAT defense is, what kind of effort it takes, and have experience playing it. However, at some point, we'll need to score more and we'll need a better offensive system. Although I'm pleased with the past 5 games, I'm reserving judgement for 3 or 4 more games. I need to see a stretch of good play to accept that there's a decent system and the players fit in to it. We'll never be a Kings or Mavs style team with Yao in the middle. It would be absolutely silly to make Yao, Duncan, or Shaq play in that kind of system. Ofcourse, Yao is not there yet, but switching to run n gun won't get him there any faster. I don't have the numbers, but I think it's safe to assume that if you have the #1 defense in the league, and the #15 (middle) offense in the league, you're probably going to be one of the best teams in the league overall.
Yes, I remember that Spurs/Knicks series. It was such a horrendous matchup that only a crazy man would have bet the Knicks to win that series. Van Gundy knows now not to bring knives to a gunfight.
