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There's a choice we're making...

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Jul 4, 2008.

  1. basso

    basso Member
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    ...We're changing our own lives...

    [rquoter]New and Not Improved

    Article Tools Sponsored By
    Published: July 4, 2008

    Senator Barack Obama stirred his legions of supporters, and raised our hopes, promising to change the old order of things. He spoke with passion about breaking out of the partisan mold of bickering and catering to special pleaders, promised to end President Bush’s abuses of power and subverting of the Constitution and disowned the big-money power brokers who have corrupted Washington politics.

    Now there seems to be a new Barack Obama on the hustings. First, he broke his promise to try to keep both major parties within public-financing limits for the general election. His team explained that, saying he had a grass-roots-based model and that while he was forgoing public money, he also was eschewing gold-plated fund-raisers. These days he’s on a high-roller hunt.

    Even his own chief money collector, Penny Pritzker, suggests that the magic of $20 donations from the Web was less a matter of principle than of scheduling. “We have not been able to have much of the senator’s time during the primaries, so we have had to rely more on the Internet,” she explained as she and her team busily scheduled more than a dozen big-ticket events over the next few weeks at which the target price for quality time with the candidate is more than $30,000 per person.

    The new Barack Obama has abandoned his vow to filibuster an electronic wiretapping bill if it includes an immunity clause for telecommunications companies that amounts to a sanctioned cover-up of Mr. Bush’s unlawful eavesdropping after 9/11.

    In January, when he was battling for Super Tuesday votes, Mr. Obama said that the 1978 law requiring warrants for wiretapping, and the special court it created, worked. “We can trace, track down and take out terrorists while ensuring that our actions are subject to vigorous oversight and do not undermine the very laws and freedom that we are fighting to defend,” he declared.

    Now, he supports the immunity clause as part of what he calls a compromise but actually is a classic, cynical Washington deal that erodes the power of the special court, virtually eliminates “vigorous oversight” and allows more warrantless eavesdropping than ever.

    The Barack Obama of the primary season used to brag that he would stand before interest groups and tell them tough truths. The new Mr. Obama tells evangelical Christians that he wants to expand President Bush’s policy of funneling public money for social spending to religious-based organizations — a policy that violates the separation of church and state and turns a government function into a charitable donation.

    He says he would not allow those groups to discriminate in employment, as Mr. Bush did, which is nice. But the Constitution exists to protect democracy, no matter who is president and how good his intentions may be.

    On top of these perplexing shifts in position, we find ourselves disagreeing powerfully with Mr. Obama on two other issues: the death penalty and gun control.

    Mr. Obama endorsed the Supreme Court’s decision to overturn the District of Columbia’s gun-control law. We knew he ascribed to the anti-gun-control groups’ misreading of the Constitution as implying an individual right to bear arms. But it was distressing to see him declare that the court provided a guide to “reasonable regulations enacted by local communities to keep their streets safe.”

    What could be more reasonable than a city restricting handguns, or requiring that firearms be stored in ways that do not present a mortal threat to children?

    We were equally distressed by Mr. Obama’s criticism of the Supreme Court’s barring the death penalty for crimes that do not involve murder.

    We are not shocked when a candidate moves to the center for the general election. But Mr. Obama’s shifts are striking because he was the candidate who proposed to change the face of politics, the man of passionate convictions who did not play old political games.

    There are still vital differences between Mr. Obama and Senator John McCain on issues like the war in Iraq, taxes, health care and Supreme Court nominations. We don’t want any “redefining” on these big questions. This country needs change it can believe in. [/rquoter]

    ...it's true we'll make a better day, just you and D'Oh!
     
  2. thumbs

    thumbs Member

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    Obama's Iraq strategy is growing very similar to McCain's. I am growing very worried about his "pragmatism" vs. his growing "need" to be President, regardless of principles or declarations.

    As I said in another thread, the song-and-dance Texas governor character in "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" is one of the best descriptions of a politician -- Democrat or Republican, Obama or McCain -- that I have ever run across.
     
  3. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    'cause you were a big fan of his before this, right?
     
  4. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Yeah, I worry about McCains growing "need" to be President too.
     
  5. thumbs

    thumbs Member

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    Never a fan. If you will recall, I preferred Mike Huckabee and Bill Richardson to lead their respective tickets. I'm still voting for a change in governmental direction, but I am beginning to doubt we will get much change regardless of who is elected.
     
  6. glynch

    glynch Member

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    The strategy is not similar, but I would expect a supporter of McCain to try to blur the difference.

    Remember when the GOP with Dubya played the "uniter not a divider" game and also called him a "compassionate conservative". Try to pretend there is no difference on the issues is the best strategy for the GOP.
     
  7. Major

    Major Member

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    Really? In what way? What, specifically, has changed in Obama's Iraq strategy?
     
  8. thumbs

    thumbs Member

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    JFK never renounced his values. He never would have said, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Rather, ask what you can do for your country ..... unless of course its inconvenient or it is not beneficial to economic or social status or you just don't feel its your problem."

    BTW -- I will not be happy or unhappy if McCain wins. Ditto for Obama. I believe we will be getting more of what we have now (the Texas two-step) politically.
     
    #8 thumbs, Jul 4, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2008
  9. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Obama clarified his remarks later in the day.

    “Let me be as clear as I can be,” he said. “I intend to end this war. My first day in office I will bring the Joint Chiefs of Staff in, and I will give them a new mission, and that is to end this war — responsibly, deliberately, but decisively.

    “And I have seen no information that contradicts the notion that we can bring our troops out safely at a pace of one to two brigades a month, and, again, that pace translates into having our combat troops out in 16 months’ time.”

    Mr. Obama added that when he had spoken earlier about possibly refining his policies, he was referring to questions about how big a residual force should be left to train Iraqi forces and conduct counterterrorism operations, not the overall timeline for withdrawal.


    The difference is McCain thinks there is a further "victory" to be gained and is willing to stay for years and years and present strength.. This is quite different from 16 months
     
  10. basso

    basso Member
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    Ouch! my neck hurts!

    [rquoter]Barack Obama's policy switches are giving the Left whiplash
    The Democratic nominee's policy pivots are causing anguish among liberals. He is no fool
    Gerard Baker

    Change, it turns out, wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. Having campaigned for the past year as the agent of transformation, the man who would lead an historic shift in America's political direction, Barack Obama is discovering that there is quite a lot he likes about the way things are.

    Since securing the Democratic nomination a few weeks ago, the only change coming from the Illinois senator has been in what he seems to stand for. Last month he dropped his opposition to a Bill before Congress that would give telecoms companies immunity from prosecution for carrying out illegal wiretaps on potential terrorist suspects.

    He told a cheering crowd of Israel's supporters of his fervent commitment to the security of the Jewish state and added, for good measure, that an “undivided” Jerusalem should be the nation's capital. He said that he likes free trade after all, and that his primary campaign pledge to dismantle the North American Free Trade Agreement was a case of “overheated rhetoric”.

    Last week he expressed support for a Supreme Court decision that struck down a ban on handguns and opposition to another that outlawed the death penalty for rape of a child.

    This week he promised to expand President Bush's faith-based organisations initiative, a programme that channels funds to religious groups so that they can deliver social welfare services, which the Left regards as a heinous blurring of Church-State separation.

    If next week he named Dick Cheney as his running-mate and revealed that he spends his spare time drilling for oil in wildlife habitats, the only surprise would be that it took him so long.

    Of course there's nothing much new in what the senator has done. In the lexicon of modern American politics, it's called a pivot. You campaign hard to the party's extreme in the primary election, where the base voters tend to be. Then, when the nomination is secure and there are no more idealists to be humoured, you pivot back to the centre. The only difference is that in Mr Obama's case the pivot is so hard and so fast that the entire Democratic Party is suffering from whiplash.

    A whimper of pain has gone up from the base. Those who really believed in the Audacity of Hope now fear a Timidity of Despair. Thousands of Obama supporters have signed a petition on his website begging him to reconsider his position on the illegal wiretaps - a seemingly minor campaign issue, but one that carries great talismanic symbolism for civil libertarians.

    Left-wing commentators have raised the usual cry of betrayal. Arianna Huffington, that rare creature, a young conservative who moved sharply left in middle age, dubbed Mr Obama's move not realpolitik, but “realstupidpolitik”.

    Conservatives, meanwhile, led by John McCain's Republican campaign, say that the presumptive Democratic nominee's pivot shows that, for all his talk of offering a new kind of politics, he is really just another cynical politician who will say anything to get elected.

    I suspect that all this worries Mr Obama not at all. The louder the Left complains, the deeper the satisfaction at Obama headquarters.

    Can you remember a time in, say the past 100 years, when the American people have rejected a presidential candidate because they thought that he was insufficiently left-wing? As for conservatives, they should be cheering Mr Obama, not complaining.

    The Left had hoped that 2008 would be a watershed election, a long-awaited counterblast to the Reagan Revolution of 1980 and Newt Gingrich's Contract with America in 1994. And if there were ever a time when the country seemed ready to move left this was surely it. Democrats have a 20-percentage-point lead in opinion polls; those same polls show that almost fourfifths of Americans think the country is on the wrong track. The Republican Party today has all the appeal of a communicable disease.

    And yet, on the issues, as Mr Obama understands, people are not so radical. On domestic prosecution of the War on Terror, on cultural issues such as guns and the death penalty, on religion's role in public life, perhaps even on trade and free markets, there is little evidence that Americans are ready to abandon their beliefs.

    This is another example of how smart the Obama campaign is. They understand that the biggest impediment to an Obama presidency is lingering doubt about whether their man is a straight-down-the-middle American. Despite having a couple of bestsellers to his name, he is still something of a blank page to most voters, one on which his opponents are trying to doodle all kinds of unflattering portraits of an extremist.

    So he is spending these dog days of summer reassuring interested but nervous voters that he is as American as the Fourth of July. And he is doing something else besides - looking ahead to his possible presidency.

    A clever pragmatist, he knows that if he wins in November, he will face an overwhelmingly Democratic Congress, clamouring to push the country harder to the left. It would, irony of ironies, fall to President Obama to reassure the American people that he can hold those radical enthusiasms in check.

    What is more, by abandoning so many left-wing totems, Mr Obama is emphasising that his promise of change is more than just a swing to the left of the old political pendulum; that his promise of post-partisan politics is a genuine one.

    But there is a risk in all this repositioning. Mr Obama will almost certainly have to junk a lot more of the campaign baggage he has accumulated over the past year.

    Two big plans look especially vulnerable. The first is his tax policy. This would raise the top marginal rate of federal income tax in the US on those earning $250,000 a year to more than 56 per cent. As the conservative Heritage Foundation pointed out in a report this week, that would put the US somewhere between Finland and Sweden in a league table of marginal tax rates. I doubt whether the American people really want to adopt a Scandinavian economic model, especially during a period of stagnation.

    The other challenge is Iraq. Mr Obama continues to insist that Iraq is a failed war and says that he will withdraw all US combat troops within 16 months of taking office. But the closer the election gets, the less plausible it will be to refuse to acknowledge the success that US forces have had in Iraq in the past year.

    If, as I suspect is highly likely, he drops these two big remaining planks from his platform, it might not just be the Left who will be wondering: what's left? [/rquoter]
     
  11. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    My eyes hurt from the fact that you have not had an original or plagiarized/original thought in months.

    OOOHhhhh look, basso posts an article while quoting a song lyric...AGAIN - HOW PITHY!!!!!

    basso, since you really really really really do take your BBS posting duties seriously, and consider yourself to be contributing to truth, justice, the american way, national security, the struggle against islamofacism, communism and all sorts of other nasty isms, by means of your fantastic wonder ful presence here.........

    why don't you put some effort into it for once and come up with a semi original thought? I know it's a lot to ask...but given your duties here....
     
  12. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost Member
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    Basso has made the D&D into his own personal blog/article archive since sometime around 2003.
     
  13. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Member

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    Im all for the intent but wouldn't it be better if he said "win" instead of end?
     
  14. FranchiseBlade

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    Obama's campaign is far more public than McCain's even if McCain accepts public financing. Obama gets his money from millions of donors giving small amounts. That's incredibly public and leaves little chance for one group to buy influence.

    The other all comes from the govt. The fact also remains that Obama didn't actually agree to public financing.

    Obama didn't really reverse himself on Iraq either, but none of that really matters, I guess.
     
  15. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Member

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    its more like his personal google search results page
     
  16. basso

    basso Member
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    this is the core of what we've been arguing about on the board since 2003.
     
  17. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

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    Good point ...albeit unintentional.

    Obama wants to end the war.
    McCain wants to win the war.

    Newsflash, we already lost.

    Osama Bin Laden said in the 90's that $140/barrel oil will hurt the west.
    regretfully, "Mission Accomplished"

    That hurts to say.

    This war has lasted longer than WWII.
    This war has costed more than any war in history.
    As a result, the economy is in ruins ...and getting worse.

    "winning" this war benefits Americans how? I'd seriously like an answer to this question. How does winning the war help me?

    Nevermind that we don't have a defintion of "winning" since W never set one ...but you define it how you please for the purpose of this question.

    How does "winning" the war in Iraq help America?
     
  18. pppbigppp

    pppbigppp Member

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    Not even a man, woman, child, or lizard would survive in the desert.

    We win, the end.
     
  19. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    you idiots who want to play war games with real american and iraqi lives can't even define winning.

    you're still b****ing about vietnam, you still can't define winning in that war, and you can't even give a cohesive reason as to why leaving there was so bad.


    edit: btw, thanks for verifying sam's jokes about your moral purpose for posting on a basketball board
     
  20. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Regardless of how one feels about the invasion and occupation of Iraq, this was a pretty strong editorial from the New York Times. I thought this was particularly salient with regards to Obama's recent shifts in his position on some issues.


    We are not shocked when a candidate moves to the center for the general election. But Mr. Obama’s shifts are striking because he was the candidate who proposed to change the face of politics, the man of passionate convictions who did not play old political games.

    There are still vital differences between Mr. Obama and Senator John McCain on issues like the war in Iraq, taxes, health care and Supreme Court nominations. We don’t want any “redefining” on these big questions. This country needs change it can believe in.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/04/opinion/04fri1.html?_r=2&ref=opinion&oref=slogin&oref=slogin


    They raise a valid point that doesn't deserve to be dismissed. When someone runs as strongly on "change" as Barack has, and has changed the political landscape by running a primary campaign unlike any we have seen before, with a general election campaign, one would assume, that will be unlike any we have seen before, the changes in his position on issues stand out even more than they would in any "ordinary" political season. He needs to be careful. While I understand his movement to the center for the general, and have supported it in other threads, Obama has to walk a fine line. More than anything, a candidate's credibility can turn an election. Look no further than John Kerry and the Swift Boat absurdity for a recent example. The candidate doesn't have to actually do anything that warrants the public deciding that their credibility is shot and that what they say is suspect. He/she only has to give the opposition enough ammunition to use effectively to attack, and to distort the truth.

    I don't think Barack will allow that to happen, but as I said, he is walking a fine line. He needs to take care that he doesn't lose his balance.



    Impeach Bush/Cheney.
     

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