I think all too often we say, "stop...let's really understand why the terrorists did this to us on 9/11." I don't mean to say that we're wrong to do so...we should. But not at the expense of forgetting WHAT they did. And not at the expense of saying, "you know what...as far as i'm concerned...that was just evil...it was just wrong." Because that's what it was. TARGETTING civilians is just plain wrong. Tony Blair who told the Labor Party conference, "They have no moral inhibition on the slaughter of the innocent. If they could have murdered not 3,000 but 300,000, does anyone doubt they would have done so and rejoiced in it? There is no compromise possible with such people, no meeting of minds, no point of understanding with such terror. Just a choice: defeat it or be defeated by it. And defeat it we must!"
I don't care what others may say, I like Blair..everytime I here him speak about anything related to us, he is always eloquent and well spoken and he makes a whole hell of a lot of sense!
Blair is a very good speaker and a very smart man but In the UK many people see him as Bushs puppet and he doesnt speak for the citizens of the UK. Not many UK citizens actually support war with Iraq, and Blair has givin the thumbs up. that said I agree with blair and think Blair backing up Bush is something that allies are meant to do. As a UK citizen I support Blair and think he is doing a fine job
Tony Blair is just another one of those crazy SOCIALISTS. Who can trust what a socialist says anyway? I guess it depends on what you’re talking about. I have seen people seemingly try to minimise what happened on 9/11 by pointing to other tragedies. I don’t think that’s right. If other tragedies have not been understood the way they should have been, then that is a problem, but that fact shouldn’t be used to diminish what happened on 9/11. What happened happened, and it was truly one of the most horrific incidents of our time. But if we are talking about addressing what happened, that has to start with an understanding of why it happened. And why it happened was not just because a couple of dozen crazy guys decided to blow up buildings. There has been a whole ground swell of discontent in a region of the world, for a long period of time, that has spawned or inspired or to some degree legitimised the existence of the terrorists. What they did on 9/11 was an extreme act even for most those disenchanted with the west, but even still there are nations and individuals who shelter these people, or at least look the other way and not stop them from doing what they are doing. It is by understanding that sea of discontent that we will be able devise meaningful action that will help prevent future incidents like those of 9/11. If you nip the top off the weed, it just keeps growing. You may stunt its growth for a while, and this may need to be done if a significant attack is immanent, but to kill the weed you have to get at the root, and to do that you have to actually look for it, and find it.
Grizzled -- I wholeheartedly agree...but we're the "Head of the Evil Serpent" right?? The US gets labelled as a Christian nation...to them it is a holy war. The Trinity is a direct blasphemy to Allah. It's religious extremism...and it's not new on the world scene. (see the Crusades). I don't know what the answer is...
It gets complicated for sure, but my understanding from my Muslim friends is that the Koran actually teaches tolerance of Christianity, and Judaism. These three religions worship the same God, so the Koran says (I’m told) that if these people are faithfully practising their religion they are doing good. There is also a bunch of other strange stuff about the bible containing errors and the real version being kept in a secret hiding spot in the Vatican, (they believe Jesus was a profit but was not resurrected for one), but in theory this doesn’t effect the respect they have for the faith. Other religions are akin to having no faith to them, however. They also tell me that what is going on is essentially politics, but that there are large uneducated masses that have been seduced by extremist interpretations of Islam. The leaders in these countries don’t like the extremists because they even attack their own people. An early version of Al Quaeda bombed a mosque in Egypt and shot some tourists, which did serious harm to Egypt’s tourist industry. Neither the people nor the governments of the ME like Saddam. So there would seem to be a lot of potential common ground, but the problem of Israel is a major stumbling block. It is one gargantuan mess to be sure, but if the UN and the ME countries themselves can be brought together to begin to address some of these issues, it will take the focus off the “evil Americans” rhetoric, and thereby diminish and deflect the momentum of the terrorist movement, and begin to make the global community take some responsibility for dealing with these problems. And of course the US always has the big stick waiting in the background. That’s how I’d approach it anyway, if they asked me for advice.
Not entirely true, as I understand it...Christians are called "People of the Book" in the Koran...I have never heard that extended to Jews. They are said to be good people, but deceived and off target. I have had numerous conversations with those who are Muslim and have read a fair amount on the differences. The trinity really is the essence of blasphemy to them. Allah is ONE...they're radically monotheistic (not to mean radical in a negative way...just on the spectrum). God can NOT have a son...that is to imply too much of a human attribute to God...i was labelled a polytheist among muslim friends...and Allah certainly would never turn himself over to the humiliation of the cross. The fundamental difference is the characterization of the very essence of God...and that's something that people can get awfully upset about! As for what they believe about Jesus...he performed miracles..he was born of a virgin...he had the gift of prophesy...sounds like Christian theology to me! ...but, of course, they don't claim he is the Son of God, as you and I would. And they would view it as heresy to ascribe those attributes to him. I agree entirely...there is and should be much respect among these faiths. We as Christians have a ton in common with Islam...particularly in terms of charitable outreach. Much more so than with any other faith, when our faith is put in practice. I would say a lot of Christian theology, in and of itself, looks more like Judaism...and for obvious reasons. Of course, we share some fundamental disagreements about the nature of Christ, and as a Christian I have a hard time saying we're worshipping the same God. But I certainly respect the Islamic faith, particularly as I came to understand it through a local basketball player...you may remember that guy...his name was Hakeem...sound familiar??
Interesting, but I think Thatcher's got a lot more than Reagan upstairs. And you couldn't find a Bush in England, could you?
I tried to do a little research on this, but perhaps not surprisingly, this seems to be point of quite a bit of contention. This isn’t the best site, but makes some direct quotes from the Qur’an which are interesting, including this one. [2:62 & 5:69] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. http://www.submission.org/christians/friends.html This seems to be a major issue with them. It’s a strange interpretation to say the least, to say that Christians are polytheistic!? I had a discussion like this with my friends, and I clarified that the three were really one, which seemed to surprise them. This is a more complicated topic for Christians than I had realised too, but it’s never been a big issue for me so I’m not familiar it’s finer points. I think I’ve heard of that guy. I’ve always thought that Islam and Judaism had a lot in common because of their focus on legalism. What their standing with God is is also something I’m not clear about. There are a few places in the bible where says, “God will not forget the Jews,” and then there is the whole Romans 4 thing. Since both Jews and Muslims worship the God of Abraham, how does this relate to them? Don’t know. What’s your take on Romans 4?
Grizzled -- 1. That's fascinating...I've never read that in the Koran. I was told by a Muslim friend that Christians are "people of the book" but that Jews were something different which was not looked on as favorably. Interesting...thanks for posting that! 2. The polytheism thing is interesting too. As I understand it, Mohammed actually talks about the trinity in the Koran...he says, "this is what Christians believe" and than grossly misinterprets what most of the Christian world believes about the trinity. I have been called a polytheist on more than a few occasions among muslim acquaintances and friends. 3. Honestly, I have no idea!!! I've read Romans 4, but I need a refresher...give me some time to read through it and I'll get back to you!
Grizzled... ok..i'm ready! my take on Romans 4...for what it's worth! God is eternal..He doesn't see us as past, present and future..He exists outside of time...the first chapter of John puts Christ at creation...establishes the eternal nature of the trinity. so the God of Abraham is represented in the trinity, which included Christ. dig?? Repentance and faith are essential in our theology. Of course, then we ask repentance from what to what? Faith in who or what? I think the biblical answer in general terms is that we repent from "my will be done" (a la Adam) to "thy will be done" (a la 2nd Adam). And we trust in the trustworthiness of God to be good and do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. As Christians we see that goodness and that doing for us what we cannot do for ourselves in Jesus Christ. And verse 25 ultimately closes the entire chapter by talking about Jesus being "raised to life for our justification." The rest of the chapter talks about Abraham being justified by his faith...I don't know what others are called to...I know I'm called to Jesus Christ...and I know that Jesus Christ calls on me to share his Gospel. Do Muslims repent and believe in this sense? I don't know. God does. In my own thinking I'm inclined to think not and so I evangelize. If I'm wrong, then great!
Jews are people of the book too. but i dont know why your friend would say the Jews were not looked as favorably. what did he tell you? quran, injil, taurat and one more book i cant remember.
Just for some perspective, the concept of the 'holy trinity' was not a well defined concept until well after the popularization of Christianity. The prevailing 'terminology' on this subject is more or less the result of a process not unlike the drafting of the constitution. I found an article here that seems to pretty well explain the historical process as I understand it. For a synopsis, here is the conclusion- BTW, Max, If you look at the books of the Bible as they relate to the others, John is the book that is most divirgent from the others (excluding Revelations), and is most "contaminated" by contemporary Greek and near-eastern religious terminologies and ideas. For instance, the book begins, if I remember correctly, "In the beginning was the word". Word in greek is Logos. The concept of 'Logos' was a popular religious/philosophical concept for viewing the natural laws of nature at the time, unrelated to Christianity. The book is also generally considered to be one of the final to have been writen, and unlike the synoptic books Mathew, Mark, and Luke, it's writer was not considered a contemporary of Jesus.
Okay, that's real. It's from surah 2, The Cow, part 62. I think the whole idea if your a deity's son, you're then a deity. Christians say Isa is Allah's son, that makes Isa a Deity. Thus the whole christians are polytheistic. Which most are. People have changed the bible over time. The quran is not allowed to be changed. Thus the bible is worth dirt to us. I don't know where your friend has read Jews are disliked in the Qu'ran because I haven't found it. Injeel(Gospal) is not the bible. The Bible is 1900 years worth of changes and amendments to the Injeel. Allah has no sons nor daughters. Allah is God. Isa was a prophet. He was never resurected. And here's something for you to chew on. Jews aren't allowed to touch a dead body during the sabboth. Isa "died" friday and they moved him at night to the "hole". The Jews didn't move a dead body that friday. (^courtesy of the discovery channel, the last line is directly from the program{I couldn't say if they did or not})
I don't want to stop the interesting discussion re religion here, but I would like to emphasize this bit from Grizzled as it relates to Blair's original statement up top. IMHO, we will always be able to find religious differences, even in a single cozy US town between Baptists and Catholics, for instance. However, if people have no real educational opportunities and they live in poverty, then they are ripe for extremism. Such a situation is a perfect breeding ground for the bacteria of terrorism. As much as I like Blair's rhetoric, I do think it's important to think through this past the "those-crazy-18-or-so-whackos" stage. A "war on poverty" would be a welcome side-kick to the war on terror, at least from behind my rosy lenses.
You can read an article from Atlantic Monthly here that goes into detail about an ancient partial copy which has been found and contains variations. An article about modern variants of the Qur'an can be found here. It is clearly from a pro-chrisitan site, but that doesn't make the scholarship invalid. I can find no faults with the work, and it is well documented if you'd like to try.
Max: We evangelise all the time anyway, of course, by endeavouring to live our lives by the spirit, and hopefully exhibiting some of the fruits of the spirit. I completely agree with what you are saying. I just have wondered about that passage where it talks about Abraham “believing and it being credited to him as righteousness,” and wondered whether it meant anything special for Jews, and perhaps by extension Muslims. (The key here of course is “believing” and so it certainly wouldn’t apply to all.) Being neither a Jew nor Muslim this has no personal meaning for me, but it is something I have found curious. Azadre: if this is what you believe about Christianity, then you have been seriously misled. Here are just a couple of passages that speak to the belief in one God. That fact that there is only one God is one of the central beliefs of Christianity. Romans 3 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Ephesians 4 1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called—5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. And although rimbaud and others may chime in on this, there is considerable evidence that suggest the bible has remained unchanged since it was written. (I’m not going to be the one digging up this evidence for you, howeve ). But as I have said before, the truth of the Bible will never be determined by a debate between “experts”. It can only be known by the way it resonates with the spirit of truth within you. The Bible is a resource that helps you understand and grow in a personal relationship with God. Amen!
That doesn't bode well for time and politics doesn't it? I agree with what you with what you said, but I wonder how we are going to find this one exact weed in the wild garden that is our world. (I hope my 'colorful' metaphor didn't make you retch too much )
