1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

The reasons for our success are the reasons for our failure

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Will, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. JeffB

    JeffB Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 1999
    Messages:
    3,584
    Likes Received:
    566
    Good points. But the points don't exactly refute Will's argument.

    One could alter Will's argument by just stating that if Harden was the kind of transcendent star that leads teams to championships, OKC wouldn't have traded him. Maybe they wouldn't have had a shrewd appreciation of his flaws as we know them today, but they could have appreciated that he wasn't the #1 or even #2 guy on a championship squad. OKC did know Harden had defensive short comings, which is why he was offense off the bench and Sefalosha was the defensive oriented starter. They also knew he was quite the party guy as opposed to a Kobe Bryant obsessive type.

    The idea is that those transcendent talents that lead championship teams are generally known/recognized as such early in their careers. And the teams that have them early in their careers are the teams that drafted them.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. txtony

    txtony Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    14,908
    Likes Received:
    10,381
    The simplest explanation is the team came into this season unprepared and haven't been able to recover. What's much harder to explain is why are they not able to recover.
     
  3. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    30,955
    Likes Received:
    11,842
    Because Dwight Howard and James Harden are not transcendent stars and not in the same league as Curry, Westbrook, James or have the the GM/coaching that the spurs do.

    We're at best a 2nd tier team and will always be in that arena.
     
  4. YOLO

    YOLO Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    36,160
    Likes Received:
    31,997
    It looks that way thanks to those ft's. Take a pair or two away and that goes down significantly. Again going away from that efficiency he's been known for the past few years.
     
  5. dmoneybangbang

    Joined:
    May 5, 2012
    Messages:
    14,649
    Likes Received:
    6,661
    I think the story on James Harden isn't nearly finished being written. Personally, I had hope he'd become a +20 pts +10 dimes type of player but he needs people around him who can score consistently. I'm obviously down on Harden as any fan can be, but he's still young and can figure it out. Or else we may just field a team that can compete for the playoffs/WCF for the next several years.

    I don't know... A combo of Capela, DMo, TJones, Harrell, Decker... Packaged with decent sized contracts could land a whale on a long term contract if the timing is right.

    Personally, I think we need to shake up the lower mid of the lineup and the bottom if needed. Mostly importantly, need to get Harden another to guard to play with who can play off the ball and make shots with Harden on the floor and run a pretty simple offense with the 2nd unit.

    I also think this. Morey will certainly shake up the roster some, but I think the core guys will still be here to rally together and give themselves a puncher's chance at the title. Not to mention, a little bit of basketball luck falling our way.
     
  6. Easy

    Easy Very Calm
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2002
    Messages:
    29,169
    Likes Received:
    11,508
    Before last season, Morey clearly thought the Harden-Howard tandem was not enough to win a championship. That's why he went after Bosh and Anthony. Some of us criticized him for wasting time chasing the third star and neglecting to find pieces to fit H&H.

    Harden surprised everyone last season, including Morey. Morey thought the core was set and kept the team intact, just going for a PG upgrade. Well it turned out that last season was fool's gold. The issues with the H&H core had not just magically gone away. Morey was fooled by the success of last season.

    And I guess he also didn't think coaching needed to be addressed as long as Harden could play on that level.
     
  7. SamFisher

    SamFisher Virtuous

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    51,652
    Likes Received:
    23,856
    Of course, neither Durant nor Westbrook looks like top player on a championship squad either, because they haven't been so far, and frankly it doesn't look likely as long as the Warriors keep ruling the West. So by that token, rather than wasting their careers in OKC, Prestige should have gotten rid of all 3, hopefully doing better than a Kevin Martin sublease.

    Doesn't tell us very much other than a bit about hindsight/confirmation bias, which is why I think every "___ is not a championship player!" Is *complete* shyte of an argument. Championship players come in all shapes and sizes and flavors. The only common denominator is being good at basketball.

    Humans, especially expert humans, are notoriously bad at forecasting outcomes of long term complex events. Predicting a given players championshipnessitude is a mugs game because of this.
     
  8. SamFisher

    SamFisher Virtuous

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    51,652
    Likes Received:
    23,856
    Last season was actual gold. They were the second best to an all time great team in a tough WC while catching very few breaks. Most successful Rockets in 2 decades.

    Fools gold = Ty Lawson

    Your metaphor game needs help.
     
  9. sun12

    sun12 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Messages:
    2,044
    Likes Received:
    14
    Totally agree.

    There is a reason OKC wants to bring Harden off the bench. There is a reason Lakers let Howard leave.

    But why would Morey bring Lawson in this season is very strange.

    At this point, Morey definitely knows that the best PG for a Harden team is Derek Fisher, Eric Snow type of PG, steady, defensive, some PG skills, and 3 pointer.
     
  10. sun12

    sun12 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Messages:
    2,044
    Likes Received:
    14
    Of course OKC knows what they have in Harden. They saw him everyday for 3 years in practice and in games.

    They know Harden is very talented. They also know to play Harden as a starter, he could not co-exist with Westbrook. They also know with Westbrook and Durant on the team, the value of Harden is as a 6th man off the bench.

    So no matter how good Harden is, as a 6th man, how much do you want to pay him? and the bench would not be good defensively.
     
  11. JustAGuy

    JustAGuy Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    70
    And sadly, Lawson has not been turned into a f!cking powerful pussy, bro.
     
  12. JeffB

    JeffB Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 1999
    Messages:
    3,584
    Likes Received:
    566
    You are contriving shyte with the OKC instance and "championshipnessitude" and you know it.

    There is a reason some guys are untouchables to certain organizations. Marketing could be a reason but it isn't always the reason. Mostly it has to do with how a team values the player's ability.

    And if the semantics of the word "championship" (a word Morey uses in evaluating the top 3 players on a team) is causing you problems, then replace it with "goodest at basketball". The point is the same. Teams don't just let go of their best players. And the player you manage to get via trade and free agency are not likely to be the best players on their former teams.

    The point is very simple. OKC felt they needed to bet on which set of players would help make them a bestest at basketballs team and when they made a choice, Harden wasn't in that picture, for whatever reason. No hindsight needed. You can use the magic of Google to verify that hindsight was not a factor in discussing Harden vs Westbrook and why Sefalosha was starting.

    There is a reason Sacramento doesn't want to trade Cousins. It is similar to the reason New Orleans won't trade Davis. Why you just aren't gonna get Wiggins off the T-Wolves anytime soon. And why the Knicks aren't gonna trade Porzingis anytime soon. If a team thinks their talent has super awesome potential, they don't let it go. No hindsight needed for that assessment.

    What team is gonna trade away talent they think can lead them to the promised land? OKC didn't value Harden as highly as Durant and Westbrook. No hindsight needed for that. The super goodness at basketball value of those 3 players was discussed in the media and on this board while OKC was negotiating Harden's extension that summer. And no hindsight was needed to have that discussion. Google and even the search function in this board will verify that.

    Rarely do teams just trade away potential/basketball goodness/championship caliber talent. When they do, they generally get similar talent in return like the initial Love for Wiggins deal. And if you aren't trading top talent for top talent, you are generally getting the a guy who already didn't work out at his drafting team.

    And check my posts. I have argued this since the end of the Francis days when it was clear Les Alexander would not allow this team to be bad enough to draft high. And, no, hindsight wasn't a factor.
     
  13. xtruroyaltyx

    xtruroyaltyx Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Messages:
    7,469
    Likes Received:
    5,447
    lets not rewrite history.

    OKC wanted to keep Harden and offered him a very good contract.

    Harden wanted a bit more and because they didn't want to pay that much luxury tax decided to move him.

    And if they knew Harden was going to be as good as he's become they wouldn't have traded him for what they did.

    OKC wasn't just looking to dump him.

    But besides all of that, just because OKC does it doesn't make it the right thing to do.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. jim1961

    jim1961 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    11,943
    Likes Received:
    4,897
    I basically agree with you. In essence, we determined that Harden was playing too many minutes and Howard too many games. The result being that other guys had to shore up the deficits created by the above and they haven't handled the task.

    Perhaps we only did as well as we did last year due to over using and relying upon our two best players.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now