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The European Invasion....

Discussion in 'NBA Draft' started by EgRiFf08, May 18, 2002.

  1. EgRiFf08

    EgRiFf08 Member

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    There is a great article on ESPN on the Euro's and how they have changed the game of basketball...

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nbadraft/story?id=1382312

    NBA scouting world-wide for young talent
    Chad Ford
    ESPN.com

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Clones.

    George Lucas loves them. So, apparently, does the NBA.

    Pau Gasol became the first international import ever to win NBA Rookie of the Year honors a few weeks ago. At 7-feet, Gasol could the handle the ball, run the floor, shoot the jumper and block shots the minute you pulled him out of the package.

    International Flavor
    ESPN.com's Chad Ford just got back from Bologna, Italy scouting the top international prospect at the Euroleague Final Four. Ford projects just where the top foreign players will land in the 2002 NBA draft.

    Lottery Bound?
    Yao Ming
    Center, China
    He's 7-foot-5. All of the doubts about his toughness, his athleticism and his ability to adapt his game to the NBA are overshadowed by the fact that he's a giant. Period.


    Nickoloz Tskitishvili
    Forward, Georgia
    A 7-footer man who can shoot the ball, has excellent handles, can run the floor but still is very raw. Can play the two guard position. Quicker and more athletic than Dirk Nowitzki, but doesn't have the low post game yet.

    Maybyner "Nene" Hilario
    Forward, Vasca de Gama, Brazil
    Compared to a young Shawn Kemp by scouts because of his strength and ferocity in the paint. Hilario is an incredible athlete, who runs the floor, blocks shots, rebounds and already has a polished low-post game. Can't shoot a lick.

    First Round
    Bostjan Nachbar
    Forward, Croatia
    Loves to play on the break, has excellent ball-handing skills and a dangerous mid-range jumper. Scouts say that he reminds them of a bigger version of Hidayet Turkoglu.

    Jiri Welsch
    Guard, Czechoslovakia
    A penetrater who likes to take the ball to the basket or dish on the dribble drive. Excellent size for a point guard. He's got a sweet outside jumper, and is a solid decision maker and leader.

    Boris Diaw-Riffiod
    Guard, France One of the few European players who likes to play above the rim. He's extremely quick, has explosive leaping ability but scouts question his toughness and outside jumper.

    Late First Round?
    Fatih Solak
    Center, Turkey
    A strong low post defender with emerging offensive skills. A lot closer to Vitaly Potapenko than Pau Gasol.

    David Andersen
    Forward, Australia
    Has great athleticism for a big man and a solid low-post repertoire, but he'll need to put on weight to be able to play effectively in the post.

    Luis Scola
    Forward, Argentina
    A low-post bruiser. He has the strength to bang in the paint, but scouts think he may be a lot closer to 6-foot-7.

    Christous Tapoutos
    Forward, Greece
    At just 20 years old, considered to be one of the top players in Greece. A lithe lefty who is comfortable both close to the basket and on the perimeter. Has NBA three-point range, runs the floor, can handle the ball on the break and is a pretty solid rebounder. Compared to Toni Kukoc over in Europe, but has been injured most of the season. The buzz is still strong enough that he put his name in the draft.

    Second Round
    Mario Stojic
    Guard, Croatia
    An athletic two guard who likes to put the ball on the floor and slash to the basket. His work ethic and shot selection are in question.

    Juan Carlos Navarro
    Guard, Spain
    A quick combo guard and an explosive scorer. May be a two guard in a point guard's body. His lack of a consistent outside shot hurts.

    Lazaros Papadopoulos
    Center, Greece
    Inconsistent big man who really helped his stock by dominating Andersen in the Euroleague championships. Needs a lot of polish, but he's got size going for him.

    Zaur Pachulia
    Forward, Georgia
    This 18-year-old low post player has a power game. A good shot-blocker and strong rebounder who just needs a few more years in Europe.

    Nenad Krstic
    Forward, Yugoslavia
    Another big man who can handle the ball and shoot from the perimeter.

    Now everyone in the NBA wants one. You may as well dub the 2002 NBA Draft "Attack of the Euro-Clones."

    Gasol's play this year stunned even the most optimistic observers. Scouts and general managers who saw him play in Spain last year knew he had the skills and physical tools to dominate someday -- the key there being someday.

    The NBA was supposed to be too physical, too fast and too rigorous for the skinny European. The book on Gasol was that he'd be thrown around in the paint, be forced to shoot outside jumpers, get abused on the defensive end, and eventually break down under the strain of an 82-game season.

    Gasol would be good in a couple of seasons. Greatness? Well that's what the Grizzlies hoped for way down the road.

    Instead, Gasol added more fuel to the NBA's recent "go international" fire. His fundamentals, sweet mid-range jumper and polished low-post moves made up for his lack of strength and experience. Gasol not only held his own against the elite power forwards in the Western Conference. On several occasions, he dominated them.

    "He's got a great feel for the game, especially angles," Memphis coach Sidney Lowe said. "He's a great passer. And his endurance (is surprising). I was shocked. I thought he was going to hit that wall soon, and at one point it looked like he did. But it lasted only two games, maybe, and he was right back at it."

    Lowe's shock over Gasol has been replicated throughout the league. From the success of All-Stars like Dirk Nowitzki and Peja Stojakovic, to the solid play of young players like Andrei Kirilenko, Tony Parker, Hidayet Turkoglu and Vladimir Radmanovic ... foreign players are no longer long-term projects.

    While high school players still take three to four years to develop, the international kids are stepping up and having an immediate impact on the league. That reality is destroying long-held myths about the style and quality of basketball being played overseas.

    Foreign players today come with an impressive résumé of fundamentals, good coaching, surprising athleticism, and years of experience playing professional basketball. They even play defense.

    "Europeans know how to play basketball better than most Americans," Nuggets assistant GM Dave Fredman said.

    Fredman should know. He was the main man behind the drafting of Kirilenko and Raul Lopez while he worked for the Jazz.

    "Fundamentals are stressed from an earlier age," Fredman said. "In the U.S., especially in the AAU programs, young kids work on dunking. Over there you have to know how to shoot it. You have to know how to handle the ball. You have to understand the team game or you don't get to play."

    That's due in part to the improved coaching overseas.

    "It doesn't matter whether you're a 7-footer or 5-foot-5," Benetton Treviso (Italy) coach Mike D'Antoni said. "You're going to do the same drills. From the ages of 8, 9, 10, players work on fundamentals. Coaches start from the outside and work their way in ... shooting is the staple of European basketball."

    In Europe, the emphasis on junior coaches isn't to win. Instead, they are judged on how they develop the young players they've been entrusted with.

    Take for example one of D'Antoni's players, Nickoloz Tskitishvili. He isn't your average, 7-foot, 19-year-old NBA draft prospect. He didn't play one minute during his team's run in the Euroleague Final Four. He doesn't have any handlers yet, doesn't drive an Escalade, doesn't have an expensive shoe contract, and (here's the kicker) has no noticeable holes in his game fundamentally.

    None.

    The comparisons to Nowitzki are scary. Though he's not as polished in the low block as the Deutsch Marksman, he's quicker and more athletic than Nowitzki was before age 20.

    Tskitishvili stands 7-feet in bare feet. He can handle, shoot from anywhere on the court and jump out of the gym. NBA scouts, general managers and ESPN.com was there in Treviso, Italy last week to watch him sink jumper after jumper after jumper. Tskitishvili showcased a crossover dribble, fade-away jumper and incredible leaping ability ... and a certain grace that you rarely see with a big man.

    But perhaps his greatest asset is that he carries the team luggage when he goes on road trips. He's spent most of his basketball career playing against professionals, players who are stronger and more mature. He thinks pass first, refusing to play the "me first one-on-one game" that scourges the NBA like the plague.

    He does not think he's the answer. Are you listening, Larry Brown?

    How will that maturity translate in the NBA? Ask the Spurs.

    Their rookie, Tony Parker, at just 19-years-old, started and finished games at point guard for the Spurs as they duked it out with the Lakers in Round 2 of the playoffs.

    "(Parker) has been in a locker room with 35-year-olds," Spurs GM R.C. Buford remarked recently. "He's traveled on buses with them. He's not coming in having played tic-tac-toe with his buddies on the yellow bus coming back from Dallas Lincoln to Dallas Carter. He's traveled and lived with men. He's already figured out what it takes, how not to be silly, to be like the rest of these men.

    "Physically, you can see he's 19. Mentally and emotionally, he's not."


    David Andersen is an Aussie who helped Kinder Bologna reach the European Final Four.

    Add to that the incredible pressure cookers that these kids play in, and you begin to understand why NBA coaches are more comfortable playing the foreign kids right away when they come to America. In addition to all the fundamentals, the players learn poise.

    "When I got here, I couldn't believe it," former Michigan State star Charlie Bell said after his team lost to Kinder Bologna in the semifinals of the Euroleauge Final Four. "The atmosphere is unlike anything I've ever experienced. The constant blowing of the horns, the whistles, the fires, the stomping, the singing ... you can't hear the ball bounce from the opening tip-off. We had some rowdy fans at Michigan State, but they were nothing compared to this."

    How good has the competition in Europe become?

    "Half the guys in the NBA couldn't play here anymore," D'Antoni said. "The level of competition is that good."

    The NBA's catching on. The league has come a long way since 1984 when the Suns took a chance on Georgi Glouchkov. Glouchkov, considered the best player in Europe when he was drafted, wilted in the NBA and returned to Europe after one season. It wasn't until players like Drazen Petrovic (drafted by Portland in 1986), Sarunas Marciulionis (drafted by the Warriors in 1987), Dino Rajda (drafted by Boston in 1988) and Vlade Divac (drafted by the Lakers in 1989) stuck in the league that teams began to catch on.

    Fifteen years later, some teams still don't get it. But Gasol's play is making them catch up quick. Frederic Weis may have poisoned New Yorkers to foreigners forever, but the foreign influence in the draft will just keep getting stronger.

    These days, for every Weis, there's a Kirlenko. For every Mirsad Turkcan, a Nowitzki.

    Foreign scouting budgets have doubled and tripled over the past few years trying to cut down on mistakes. Even GMs are now making the trips overseas to look at these kids themselves. Still there's been a reluctance to spend a high pick on a foreign kid.

    In 1998, the Mavs surprised everyone when they traded their No. 6 pick for Nowitzki, an obscure second division player in Germany. The Grizzlies surprised everyone again by drafting Gasol so high.

    "I remember Rod Thorn calling me in '98," D'Antoni, who was coaching the Nuggets then, remembers. "He asked me if I knew who the best player in the draft was. I told him I thought it was Nowitzki and he agreed. We just didn't have the guts to take him so high."

    In retrospect, Nowitzki would probably should have gone No. 1. Ditto for Gasol.

    This year, the rest of the NBA is determined not to be outwitted by internationally savvy teams like the Mavs.

    For the first time ever, there's a chance that the No. 1 overall pick in the draft may go to a foreign import -- 7-foot-5 Chinese center Yao Ming. Tskitishvili and Maybner "Nene" Hilario, a 6-foot-9 Brazilian power forward, have realistic shots at landing in the lottery. Add to the mix players such as 6-foot-8 swingman Bostjan Nachbar from Croatia; 6-6 point guard Jiri Welsch from Czechoslovakia; Boris Diaw-Riffiod, a super athletic 6-foot-7 two guard from France; David Andersen, a 6-foot-11 power forward from Australia; and Luis Scola, a 6-foot-8 power forward from Argentina, and there's a possibility that eight "pros" playing overseas will go in the first round this year.

    That is a worldwide draft and NBA Commissioner David Stern loves it.

    "Young Spanish kids watch Pau Gasol playing in the NBA, and it allows them to dream. Without sounding too corny, it gives them a dream, and it allows them to follow their dream," Stern said. "The same is going to be true of young German kids watching Nowitzki and young French kids watching Parker and ultimately young Chinese kids who are watching Wang Zhizhi, (Denver center) Mengke Bateer and Yao Ming. You can go country by country."

    A billion Yao Ming fans can't be wrong.

    Is Yao the next Bill Walton? Is Tskitishvili the next Nowitzki? Hilario the next Olajuwon? Nachbar the next Stojakovic? Welsch the next Turkoglu?

    Here come the clones.

    Interesting....It says "Nene" cant shoot a lick...i never read this anywhere...but I have read he is not a strong rebounder

    So...is "Nene" a future bust...a guy who's a soft rebounder who can't shoot??

    Gimme some comments:) :)
     
  2. Relativist

    Relativist Contributing Member

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    I'm very interested in Nene now, but I haven't a clue what he's like and I know it.

    Frankly, as long as he can rebound better than Mo T and is good enough close to the basket to score 10ppg, I'll take him if he's as fierce (on defense) as advertised and can develop a shot in the future. NBADraft.net makes him sound like the ultimate big man. We'll have to wait and see.

    Nachbar sounds interesting to me too. Accord to Chad, shooting seems to be a weakness for both these guys. For Nachbar, it's not that he can't shoot, but that no one seems to be emphasizing him as an outstanding perimeter shooter. That's important for the Rockets. They need a really good shooter at SF, no matter what others may say. I like Dunleavy, but probably not as high as he's going. I don't think he's the 'answer,' and if he's not, we could probably get more out of a #5 pick. Nachbar sounds appealing because he might bring much of what Dunleavy brings but might still be available with our #15. We'll see.
     
  3. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

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    Just for the heck of it, I'll point out that about half of these guys aren't European.
     
  4. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    Excellent point, Grizzled. We should substitute "international" for "European."
     
  5. Heath

    Heath Member

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    Well - if you tally it up 9 of 15 is, and that is not too shabby percentage, and atleast four of those not being european plays in europe. I also think I heard that the aussie was part european (danish) but dont hold me to that.

    Redo your math :D
     
  6. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

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    Well, let's take a closer look then. European or not?

    Ming - no
    Tskitishvili - close, but no
    Hilario - no
    Nachbar - yes
    Welsch - yes
    Diaw-Riffiod - yes
    Solak - probably not, but I guess there is a little corner of Turkey in Europe
    Andersen - no
    Scola - no
    Tapoutos - yes
    Stojic - yes
    Navarro - yes
    Papadopoulos - yes
    Pachulia - close, but no
    Krstic - yes

    Totals: 7 our of 15 aren't European by birth.

    Further, two of the three projected to be in the lottery aren't from Europe and don't play in Europe. I'm not sure about where the rest play, but this alone suggests the "European Invasion" angle is a bit misplaced, IMO.
     
  7. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    Why do you say no to Tsika? Last time I checked Italy was still in Europe.
     
  8. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    Grizzled and Crash: why duke it out over details? Refer to them all as international players, and let's move on to which of them best fills a need for the Rocks.
     
  9. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    know one is duking it out. Maybe I should have added one of these to my post... :p
    I doubt that either of us really care so long as they can play if one of them gets drafted by the Rockets.

    BTW is Georgia considered to be in Europe or the Middle East. I really don't know for sure.
     
  10. Grizzled

    Grizzled Member

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  11. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    Maybe the title could have read: The Eurasion Invasion! :D
     
  12. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    The South Americans would have revolted -- or is that an oyxmoron of sorts.:D
     
  13. Legendary21

    Legendary21 Member

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    Czechoslovakia?!?!???! Hello that country was split into the Czeck republic an Slovakia years ago!!!!!!

    Is it just Chad Ford, or is this ignorance widespread?

    It kind of gives me a feeling that no one in america knows what´s going on here in Europe. I sure hope they´re better informed regarding the possible draftees.

    For those discussing this:
    The borders between Europe and Asia and Africa ("the middle East" is not a continent, and has no official borders) are a bit vague. Everybody wants to be part of Europe.
    Israel, for example, is definitely not in Europe by any map. But they still compete in european competitions and such things (Maccabi Tela Aviv was in the Euro league final four).
    I think theese "border countries" are members of the European basketball federation or something like that, and that´s why they compete in european competitions.
    Hell, there´s a mountain in russia (Mt. Elbrus) thats officialy in Europe, and it´s higher than Mt. Blanc in France. But still every book that keeps record of such things says Mt. Blanc is the highest mountain in Europe.
    I´m kind of drifting away from basketball so I´ll just quit now...
     
  14. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    Helloooooo....I believe all those players are "foreign imports" and they are all "international" players.

    Which one will help the Rockets the most?
     
  15. Legendary21

    Legendary21 Member

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    I think Caron Butler would help the rockets the most. At least right away. Tsikitishvili or Wilcox might be better down the road though. Hmm...:confused:
    I´m not too sure on Woods though. I can´t recall one Juco player who had a succesful jump to the NBA.:(
     
  16. bsb8532

    bsb8532 Member

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    I keep on hearing better and better things about Tskitishvili. Considering Rudy went to Europe for scouting purposes AND every scout seems to be in love with the guy I wouldn't be suprised if we used our pick on him. No holes in his game? You've got to be kidding me? If he really is quicker than Dirk and can play SF then he could be the perfect fit for our team. He can block shots, rebound, shoot, loves passing, and is fundamentally sound despite only being 19. If he has any one-on-one defensive capabilities against SF type NBA players then he's probably the most intriguing guy in the draft. How interesting would it be if we draft Tskitishvili and moved up to get Hilario? Those 2 guys are the most interesting guys in the draft and by all accounts of scouts have tremendous upside. Rebounding? Size? Defense? Those 3 areas that need to be upgraded more than anything could easily be adressed by those guys. Imagine Tskitishvili, EG, and Hilario in the lineup. Blocks galore!
     
  17. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    What worries me about N.T. (we have to come up with a good nickname for him, don't we?) is that, if he is so good, why does he play so few minutes on his European team? However, if he is worth half his hype, I'd be very happy to have him.
     
  18. mfclark

    mfclark Member

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    I think European teams tend to play all of their players for a good portion of the game, so no one really sees a lot of minutes. Gasol didn't get that many minutes the year before he was drafted, yet he made a strong case for himself here in the NBA this year.

    Whether he's the exception or the rule remains to be seen.
     
  19. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Maybyner "Can't shoot a lick" Hilario will not be drafted by Rudy T.
     
  20. bsb8532

    bsb8532 Member

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    2 things,

    Maybner can't shoot extremely well, but that's not uncommon of young big men. Hakeem couldn't shot FT's for crap, but he learned. Besides, we want rebounding and defense out of a big man and we're not in the age where C's are a dime a dozen. Hilario can play like a 7 footer with his size and long arms. We'll have enough offense with Franchise, Cat, EG, Taylor, and one of our picks or trades this offseason anyways.

    As for Tskivitivili, it seems as though in Europe they take development a lot more seriously than in the U.S. They want their young studs to come along slowly, thus why he hasn't played a lot. He will, however, get a lot more minutes this next year. I think he's still a year younger than Gasol was when he was drafted so its not as if he's as far along as him. He has the skills but will obviously need the refining. I'm not saying that I completely bought into the guy either (though he obviously has a ton of potential), but I'm rather trying to connect Rudy's trip to Europe with the fact that I haven't seen a scouting report yet that speeks negatively of the big European.
     

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