1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

That poll about Arab opinions on the US? Oops... Enron math...

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by haven, Mar 24, 2002.

  1. haven

    haven Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 1999
    Messages:
    7,945
    Likes Received:
    14
    http://www.sltrib.com/2002/Mar/03242002/nation_w/722197.htm
    Islamic Poll Distorted by Averaging
    Sunday, March 24, 2002


    BY RICHARD MORIN
    and CLAUDIA DEANE
    THE WASHINGTON POST

    The hugely influential Gallup Poll of Islamic Countries released last month continues to make news -- not all of it good for the Gallup Organization, USA Today and CNN.
    The National Council on Public Polls, a leading professional watchdog organization, recently posted on its Web site a stinging rebuke of CNN and USA Today for the way their reporters reported the overall results of the nine-nation survey project.
    But now it appears that Gallup itself provided reporters with the sensational characterizations that were the primary target of NCPP criticism.
    It is also apparent that the hype was unnecessary, tainting an otherwise remarkable and important polling project, survey experts said.
    One thing is certain: The polls made big news around the world. President Bush publicly expressed dismay about the results. So did a small army of diplomats, policymakers and pundits.
    And little wonder. As reported by CNN and USA Today, the poll found that 53 percent of those interviewed said they had an unfavorable view of the United States. Only nine percent thought the U.S. military action in Afghanistan was justified. Fewer than one in five -- 18 percent -- in six of the nine countries believed Arabs carried out the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. (Three countries wouldn't let Gallup polltakers ask the question.)
    You won't find those results on Gallup's Web site, however. That's because of one rather big problem: These eye-opening results were "actually the average for the countries surveyed regardless of the size of their populations," the NCPP noted. "Kuwait, with less than 2 million Muslims, was treated the same as Indonesia, which has over 200 million Muslims."
    That's Enron arithmetic. It's as if California and South Dakota each were granted the same number of electoral votes in presidential elections.
    The problem would be particularly worrisome if there were big differences in the results across the nine countries. And there were, at least on some key questions. For example, 36 percent of those interviewed in tiny Kuwait said the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks were morally justifiable, compared to only 4 percent in Indonesia.
    If the results of the two countries were averaged together, which is what NCPP said Gallup did, the result suggests that about 20 percent of these Muslims seemed to view the attack as justified.
    But if the results were properly adjusted to account for population, the result is very different: About 5 percent of all Muslims in Kuwait and Indonesia thought the terrorist attacks were morally justified.
    So where did reporters get the bogus aggregate numbers?
    From the Gallup Organization, said Andrea Stone, the reporter who wrote USA Today's page 1 story. The aggregates were clearly noted in the first fax sent by Gallup to USA Today and CNN, which also included the country-by-country results. "I didn't do the arithmetic," Stone said.
    Frank Newport, editor-in-chief of the Gallup Poll, acknowledged that the aggregates were included in the material supplied to news organizations. So that means Gallup itself is partially to blame for the snafu, right?
    "I don't know," he said.
    Newport said Gallup analysts repeatedly cautioned against using the aggregated numbers when the results were released at a seminar in Washington. But no such warning appeared on Gallup's first release to Stone or to reporters at CNN. And it was this release that reporters used to prepare their stories.
    Gallup conspicuously omits references to the aggregate numbers in its own analyses of the poll data. Instead, it cites results from individual countries and strongly urges others to do the same. "Look at the (results from) individual countries, look at the differences in attitudes between countries," Newport said. "That's how we have chosen to look at it."
    Newport is the vice president of NCPP, whose members include many of the nation's most respected and influential pollsters. He declined to say whether he endorsed NCPP's statement. Gallup is partners with CNN and USA Today on surveys in the United States, but the news organizations were not partners in the Islamic poll.
    In its statement, the NCPP review board also faulted CNN and USA Today for repeatedly claiming the poll was a survey of "the Muslim world."
    Turns out it's a small world -- much too small. The nine countries in which the survey was conducted are home to only about 40 percent of all Muslims, the NCPP noted. Included in the study were Indonesia, Iran, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Morocco, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Turkey. Conspicuously absent were views of Muslims living in India, Egypt, Bangladesh and Nigeria.
     
  2. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,685
    Likes Received:
    16,211
    That's because of one rather big problem: These eye-opening results were "actually the average for the countries surveyed regardless of the size of their populations," the NCPP noted. "Kuwait, with less than 2 million Muslims, was treated the same as Indonesia, which has over 200 million Muslims."


    This was a bright idea.
     
  3. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 1999
    Messages:
    18,305
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    I thought you two were against the Electoral College.
     
  4. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,685
    Likes Received:
    16,211
    I thought you two were against the Electoral College.

    I am, for the same basic reason that this poll tabulation was stupid (although it takes the EC to the extreme). One person should count as one person. It makes no sense that 200 million Indonesians get the same vote as 4 million Kuwaitis in this poll.

    It's like having 1 vote per state, no matter how many people are in the state. The electoral college improves on that, but still has the same basic effect of giving different people different amounts of representation.
     
  5. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 1999
    Messages:
    18,305
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    Huh?

    Indonesia has more people than Kuwait just like New York has more people than South Dakota. Here, they combined the votes as 'all Muslim nations', while eliminating the Electoral College would combine the votes as 'all Americans'. If you're against the EC, you should be in favor of this poll, not the other way around.
     
  6. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,685
    Likes Received:
    16,211
    Indonesia has more people than Kuwait just like New York has more people than South Dakota. Here, they combined the votes as 'all Muslim nations', while eliminating the Electoral College would combine the votes as 'all Americans'. If you're against the EC, you should be in favor of this poll, not the other way around.

    I don't think you understood the poll.

    Answering the question of "moral justification of 9/11"

    200 million Indonesians voted 4% yes
    4 million Kuwaitis voted 36% yes

    That's 9.4 million people saying yes, or 4.6% of the people actually voted YES.

    However, Indonesia was counted as the same size as Kuwait, so they would report the results as the average of 4% and 36%, which is 20%. That's ridiculous. It's also what the EC does on a smaller scale. They at least weight the states a little differently instead of 1:1 in all cases.

    How exactly do you think think reporting 20% of Muslims think it was justifiable is accurate when only 4.6% of the people actually voted that way?
     
  7. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,685
    Likes Received:
    16,211
    The EC actually has two issues, though -- this is one of them in that different states' people are worth different amounts.

    The other, however, is that no matter what the vote is, all the EC votes are given to one candidate. That is the larger and more ridiculous problem, but that's not really relevent to what we're talking about here. That's how Reagan got something like 98% of the electoral vote vs. Mondale with nowhere near that much of the popular vote.
     
  8. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 1999
    Messages:
    18,305
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    Good call.
     
  9. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    22,412
    Likes Received:
    362
    Can you say, "Whoops!"

    :)
     
  10. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 1999
    Messages:
    18,305
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    The only thing dumber than arguing with Major is trying to argue with him when you've had a few drinks.
     
  11. R0ckets03

    R0ckets03 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 1999
    Messages:
    16,326
    Likes Received:
    2,042
    Who hired these idiots? :mad:
     
  12. BrianKagy

    BrianKagy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    4,106
    Likes Received:
    6
    I wonder if CNN will still make cracks about FOXNews' credibility.
     
  13. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2001
    Messages:
    19,568
    Likes Received:
    14,574
    The Muslims were not responsible for 9-11. Instead it was 19 arab/other M.Easterners claiming they were Muslims. I really am not too happy with action in Afganistan. Why? Because it only took out a gov't but no UBL. One thing that's wrong with the poll is if it was for Arab's then Iran can't be polled, ok so now they're calling it for Muslim world. Well then why weren't us Muslims in America polled?
    Just my 2 rials
     
  14. haven

    haven Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 1999
    Messages:
    7,945
    Likes Received:
    14
    Perhaps, next time, you should contribute your opinion in a thread where we're actually debating content? In case you haven't noticed, we've had enough vitriolic clashes on this topic. I thought it was important to note that a poll that had made a huge splash on this board turned out to be ridiculously flawed (well, the interpretation of the data, at least).

    If you really want to voice your opinion, perhaps you should resurrect a thread in which we actually debate the issue.
     
  15. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    22,412
    Likes Received:
    362
    What credibility??? :)
     
  16. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2001
    Messages:
    19,568
    Likes Received:
    14,574
    Sorry:(
     
  17. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,685
    Likes Received:
    16,211
    Why? Because it only took out a gov't but no UBL. One thing that's wrong with the poll is if it was for Arab's then Iran can't be polled, ok so now they're calling it for Muslim world. Well then why weren't us Muslims in America polled?


    I agree -- this was just a badly done poll all the way around. I don't know about polling Muslims in the US, because I think the goal is to count Muslims in the Middle & Far East, but they still ignored a number of countries out there -- I believe they only polled like 8 or 9? Since there are so significant differences country to country, that's not going to generate an accurate result, even if they did tally the votes properly.
     
  18. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 1999
    Messages:
    18,305
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    haven, you're a bully! Apologize! You made him cry!
     
  19. haven

    haven Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 1999
    Messages:
    7,945
    Likes Received:
    14
    Azadre:

    It's ok ;). Didn't mean to come off harsh... we've just had a lot of really heated discussion on this, already, and I wanted to avoid another brawl :).

    I agree that it's tough to survey "the Islamic world" when one only includes 40% of all Muslims.
     
  20. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    22,412
    Likes Received:
    362
    Has anyone noticed that the fact the poll was wrong has gotten almost NO play on the news but the original poll got HEADLINES.

    This is classic media sensationalism. They want the big headline but refuse to acknowledge the mistakes.

    In addition, shouldn't this be encouraging??? Shouldn't we be GLAD that there was a mistake? I had a friend who worked for a local media outlet for many years. His boss, on a regular basis, told the reporters and broadcasters that it was their job to "scare" the listeners because they wouldn't watch/listen if they weren't scared.

    It reminded me of Bill Murray in Scrooged talking about how people had to be so terrified to miss their Christmas special that they were forced to tune in.

    Pathetic.
     

Share This Page