1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[Thanksgiving] Trump single-handedly reducing crude prices

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by robbie380, Nov 13, 2018.

  1. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Messages:
    23,253
    Likes Received:
    9,594
    We must give thanks to Lord Trump for this kind gift he has bestowed upon us. Thank you Jesus Trump for your generosity.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/13/why-oil-prices-tumbled-from-four-year-highs-into-a-bear-market.html

    The oil market is undergoing a stunning reversal as crude futures wipe out this year's gains after hitting their highest levels since 2014 just six weeks ago.

    The slump reflects a fundamental change in the outlook for the oil prices. A month ago, traders were concerned that a looming shortage of oil would push crude futures to $100 a barrel. Now, supply is expected to swamp demand at the start of 2019.

    As a result, oil prices have plunged more than $20 a barrel since the start of October, when Brent crude rose to nearly $87 a barrel and U.S. crude traded just shy of $77. Both benchmarks are now trading firmly in bear market territory, having fallen more than 20 percent from their 52-week highs.


    Along the way, U.S. crude has posted its longest losing streak since it began trading in New York more than three decades ago. The contract has now fallen for 12 consecutive sessions. It settled at $55.69 on Tuesday, its lowest closing price since Nov. 16, 2017.

    [​IMG]

    The roots of the pullback can be traced back to the most recent rally itself. At the peak of the run-up, many energy analysts said oil prices never should have risen so far so fast.

    Crude futures rose to four-year highs on Oct. 3 as the market braced for renewed U.S. sanctions on Iran, OPEC's third biggest producer. Through September, the threat of sanctions wiped about 800,000 barrels a day off the market, fueling speculation that some oil importers would struggle to find supplies.

    Stock market sell-off
    That left oil prices vulnerable to a pullback just as the stock market was about to sell off. One week after crude futures struck their highs, two-thirds of the stocks in the S&P 500 plunged into correction territory.

    That kicked off a broad market rout that saw investors shed risk assets, including crude futures. Oil and stocks do not always move in tandem, but the assets were closely correlated during last month's sell-off.

    Right around the same time that investors started dumping stocks and commodities, concerns about faltering oil demand sharpened.

    Weaker consumption outlook
    In October, both OPEC and the International Energy Agency said oil consumption would grow less than previously forecast, pointing to signs of slowing global economic growth due to trade tensions, rising interest rates and weak emerging market currencies.

    The U.S. dollar has risen nearly 3 percent against a basket of currencies over the last two months. That makes crude oil, which is sold in dollars, more expensive to holders of other currencies.

    Rising output
    Meanwhile, the world's top three oil producers are pumping at or near all-time highs and the 15-member OPEC cartel is in the middle of a coordinated production increase.

    U.S. output has topped 11 million barrels per day in recent months, while Russia is pumping at post-Soviet era highs at roughly the same level. Saudi Arabia has trailed just behind at 10.6 million bpd in October.

    The rising output and weakening demand outlook now has much of the market convinced that supply will outstrip the world's appetite for oil early next year.

    Iran waivers
    The Trump administration's decision to allow eight countries to continue importing Iranian crude for the next six months has also relieved downward pressure on oil prices.

    With demand growth looking shaky and oil prices collapsing, OPEC and its allies are now considering a fresh round of output cuts.

    The cartel, along with Russia and several other producers, began capping their output in January 2017 to drain a global crude glut and end a punishing oil price downturn. However, they agreed to reverse course and hike output in June after cutting output more than they intended.

    Last month, a committee representing the group said the alliance may have to once again throttle back output to prevent oversupply. The group essentially reiterated that position at its latest meeting on Sunday. The following day, Saudi Arabia's energy minister said the group believes an output cut approaching 1 million bpd may be in order.

    Still, oil prices continued to move lower on Tuesday, after President Donald Trump urged OPEC and Saudi Arabia to stay the course and as Russia's energy minister continues to express skepticism about the wisdom of supply cuts.
     
  2. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    42,755
    Likes Received:
    2,988
    Just in time for the drive to grandma's for the holidays
     
  3. Astrodome

    Astrodome Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    11,099
    Likes Received:
    12,358
    Single handedly lol
     
    ThatBoyNick likes this.
  4. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,717
    Likes Received:
    18,917
    Now if only Trump could wave his hands and make the illegals disappear. But that might not be good for his re-election prospects
     
  5. adoo

    adoo Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2003
    Messages:
    9,576
    Likes Received:
    6,107
    dysfunction in the Trump WH has single-handedly caused the volatility in the stock market


    before Trump had put trade war on the table, the fear index was below 10, now it is above 20

    [​IMG]


    the latest eg has been the public spat between Trump's trade advisor Peter Navarro and
    Trump economic advisor Larry Kudlow

    Last Thur, Navarro said that "globalists should stop pressuring the POTUS to reach
    a trade agreement w China; the DOW ended up dropping 600 point , and
    another 200 on the next trading day

    yesterday, Larry Kudlow bashed Navarro's comment
    "He was not speaking for the president, nor was he speaking for the administration,"
    "I think Peter was freelancing and very badly misspoke," "His remarks were way off base.
    They were not authorized by anybody. I actually think he did the president a great disservice."

    then the market kind of recovered, actually turning positive for a while, ended up w a smaller loss.

    today, after this public feud was spilled into the open, the market opened positive


    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/13/kudlow-says-navarros-china-comments-were-not-authorized.html
     
    #5 adoo, Nov 14, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
    No Worries likes this.
  6. Nippystix

    Nippystix Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,510
    Likes Received:
    1,213
    Sure this might not bode well for the Houston economy, but hey, at least the poor and middle class got a tax cut equivalent to a Costco membership! In a way, that has to be a net win right?
     
    Canadiandude likes this.
  7. Jugdish

    Jugdish Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2006
    Messages:
    8,312
    Likes Received:
    8,189
    Tiny-handedly
     
    Invisible Fan, jo mama and Rashmon like this.
  8. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Messages:
    23,253
    Likes Received:
    9,594
    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/15/trump-duped-saudis-into-tanking-oil-prices-analysts-say.html

    'Duped,' 'tricked' and 'snookered': Oil analysts say Trump fooled Saudis into tanking crude prices
    • Oil markets analysts say it appears that the Trump administration tricked Saudi Arabia and other oil producers into slashing oil prices.
    • President Donald Trump pressured the Saudis to orchestrate a production increase ahead of U.S. sanctions on Iran.
    • The Trump administration threatened to cut Iran's exports to zero, but ultimately allowed some of its biggest buyers to continue importing crude.
    Earlier this year, Saudi Arabia pulled off a challenging U-turn in global oil market policy, convincing a fractious group of two dozen nations to hike output and undercut the oil market rally that was filling their coffers.

    The Saudis undertook this unpopular task at least in part to help its allies in the White House — and for its troubles, the kingdom was rewarded with a series of blistering tweets from President Donald Trump and the biggest pullback in oil prices since the historic downturn of 2014.

    Oil market analysts say it now appears that Trump hoodwinked Saudi Arabia, fooling the U.S. ally into pushing the oil market into oversupply and sparking a roughly 25 percent drop in crude prices. That accomplished Trump's goal of driving down energy costs for Americans, but left nations dependent on oil income like Saudi Arabia with the prospect of shrinking revenues.

    The analysts say Trump essentially bamboozled the Saudis by threatening for months to implement sanctions against Iran so strictly, the Islamic Republic's exports would go into free fall. But when the administration's deadline for oil buyers to quit Iranian oil arrived on Nov. 4, Trump instead dolled out six-month exemptions to some of the country's biggest customers.

    "They got sort of tricked here," said John Kilduff, founding partner of energy hedge fund Again Capital. "The Russians and the Saudis in particular ramped up production, ramped up exports ahead of what was supposed to be severe sanctions on Iran, and when the administration gave the eight waivers to Iran's largest buyers, it undercut that whole equation."

    "So now we've tripped into an oversupply situation almost overnight because of the severe reaction by Russia and the Saudis to cover for Iran losses, which never materialized."

    To be sure, the sanctions have shrunk Iran's exports by about 1 million barrels per day. Few thought the Trump administration would actually achieve its stated goal of cutting its rival's shipments to zero.

    But the sanctions, backed by the administration's hawkish rhetoric, cut Iran's exports more quickly than many anticipated. The market also expected another big drop after the Nov. 4 deadline passed. That fear fueled a rally that sent oil prices to four-year highs.

    Over the last six weeks, that rally has unwound in spectacular fashion, with oil prices tumbling into a bear market. The pullback has several causes, including a weaker demand outlook for crude and a wider market sell-off, but analysts say OPEC's output hike earlier this year and the sanctions waivers play a major part in the oil price plunge.

    "In early October there was this expectation that a lot of Iran's barrels were going to come off the market, and so essentially Saudi Arabia was duped into increasing production," said Matt Smith, head of commodities research at tanker-tracking firm ClipperData.

    Smith says it's uncertain the situation has unfolded exactly as the Trump administration intended, but it has ultimately worked out in the president's favor — though potentially at a cost to U.S.-Saudi relations.

    "They've really done a good job of decreasing that oil price, but it has been at the expense of some of those relations there, because surely the Saudis have got to be pretty unhappy with the way things have played out here."

    Saudi Energy Minister Khalid al-Falih acknowledged this week that Iran's exports didn't fall as much as expected.

    He also announced that Saudi Arabia will ship 500,000 fewer bpd in December and said OPEC and its allies may cut production by 1 million bpdnext year. That decision could come in a few weeks when OPEC, Russia and other producers meet to review their current policy of easing output curbs that have been in place since last year.

    Trump took to Twitter a few hours later, tweeting, "Hopefully, Saudi Arabia and OPEC will not be cutting oil production. Oil prices should be much lower based on supply!"

    The president has previously used Twitter to blame OPEC for high oil prices and demand the group take action to cut costs. At the U.N. General Assembly this year, he told world leaders that OPEC is ripping them off.

    Analysts say Falih's comments this week might have pushed oil prices higher, if not for Trump's tweet.

    "I think the market is ignoring [the Saudis] because of Trump," said Helima Croft, global head of commodity strategy at RBC Capital Markets. "I think if you didn't have the Trump tweet, there would not be this skepticism. Right now, there's a view that the Saudis will reverse course because of Trump. There's a sense that Trump really has them over a barrel at this point."

    The kingdom is in a precarious position after a Saudi prosecutor acknowledged that government agents killed journalist and U.S. resident Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul last month, following earlier denials by the state.

    Gary Ross, CEO at Black Gold Investors, believes the cartel will ultimately agree to cut output when it meets with Russia and other producers next month. However, in his view it may be too little too late.

    "They're pretty much snookered by Trump," Ross said. "I mean, Trump led them to believe that the Iranian exports would be zero. It turned out they're going to be 1.2 to 1.5 million barrels a day, way higher than people thought."

    "Broadly speaking, it's an oversupply story, and I think they will cut back, but they're not likely to cut back enough to drive prices back up to anything like $80 Brent," he told CNBC. "I think we're going to be in a $60 to $70 Brent market for some time."

    The White House did not immediately return a request for comment.
     
  9. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    42,755
    Likes Received:
    2,988
  10. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    124,049
    Likes Received:
    32,954
    Anyone that believes Trump in this is a certifiable idiot.

    DD
     
    Rocket River likes this.
  11. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Messages:
    23,253
    Likes Received:
    9,594
    Trump did this for you DD. He loves all his children. HAPPY TRUMPSGIVING!
     
    Rocket River likes this.
  12. dmoneybangbang

    Joined:
    May 5, 2012
    Messages:
    20,998
    Likes Received:
    12,870
    I guess that was a smart short term move.... but now OPEC and Russia know now.
     
  13. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    42,755
    Likes Received:
    2,988
    I don't agree with this article that basically says Trump is using his support of Saudia Arabia as leverage over them to not slow oil production but its funny given this thread

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/05/opec-meeting-oil-markets-fear-trump-controls-production-policy.html


















     
  14. Buck Turgidson

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    85,500
    Likes Received:
    83,774
    last cnbc artice: debunked
    new cnbc article: status pending?
     
  15. Buck Turgidson

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    85,500
    Likes Received:
    83,774
    Aaaaaaand in news that should be surprising to absolutely nobody but Donald Trump and maybe @robbie380 , OPEC+ (OPEC+Russia/Kazhakhstan/Mexico & others) has agreed to cut production by 1.2M barrels per day for at least the next 6 months.
     
  16. Amiga

    Amiga 10 years ago...
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    21,809
    Likes Received:
    18,601
    I have wondered, how is it legal for OPEC (+ other) to control output? It's price fixing. Is price fixing legal when it's between international parties?
     
  17. Buck Turgidson

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    85,500
    Likes Received:
    83,774
    Funny you should ask. A bill called NOPEC (No Oil Producing and Exporting Cartels) has been kicked around Washington since the W administration. Both he and Obama said they would veto it and it has never gotten out of the Senate. Basically it would allow OPEC, aligned states and nationalized oil companies to be sued in US courts for market manipulation. The reason they have an antitrust exemption in the US is due to judicial precedent (I'd have to do research to find the exact cases & when & the reasoning) that grants them "state immunity".

    It resurfaced in the news this week during the OPEC+ meetings, and people are nervous given the current administration. Here's a decent starting point if you want to read more about it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Oil_Producing_and_Exporting_Cartels_Act

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/04/us-...pec-is-a-big-concern-barclays-cohen-says.html
     
    Amiga likes this.
  18. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2000
    Messages:
    21,622
    Likes Received:
    6,257
    Saudi tried to kill fracking. Americans just became very efficient at it. Companies can make money at 40-50 bucks. I guess Saudi screwed up. It doesn't matter what opec does. You have too many people trying to fill the Gap.
     
    Severe Rockets Fan and pgabriel like this.
  19. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Messages:
    23,253
    Likes Received:
    9,594
    Vaya con Dios!

    Good news for American producers!

    Thank you Trump for making OPEC give up more market share to our powerful American energy producers!

    https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS1&f=M

    https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm
     
  20. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    43,287
    Likes Received:
    25,312
    Deji McGever and robbie380 like this.

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now