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SuperBowl 'World Champions'?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by ScreamingRocketJet, Jan 28, 2003.

  1. rocks_fan

    rocks_fan Rookie

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    Thanks dimsie. I don't take much seriously, but sports is an exception :D . Touch rugby....hmm..interesting concept. That might work for youth programs, but making the big leap to high school levels is tough. Even sports like wrestling are just now starting to catch on big all over the US at the HS level because of the perceived possibility of injury. People seem to make the conclusion that pads = safety even if that's not always the case. I'll just leave all that for smarter minds than mine.

    Anyway, have fun with the discussion all I've gotta get some sleep so I can get my eyes lasered tomorr....er, later today. Houstonians, if you want to see a dumb@ss get roped into trying out a brand new form of LASEK by his sister (does pub. relations for UT Med center) my surgery is going to be covered by Channel 2 Health Watch. I'll let you all know when it's going to be on. Of course if I go blind, you'll have to find it on your own ;) . Later all.
     
  2. dimsie

    dimsie Member

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    OK, let's boil this down. You said 'American athletes are the best in the world' and I basically responded with 'that's a totally indefensible position to take because there are lots of excellent athletes in many other countries', and I gave you some examples. So, yeah, hit me. How on earth do you know that? Have you made a survey of all the athletes in the world? Or done a scientific comparative study of various countries' per capita athletic excellence? How do you measure these things? Explain, because I think that's a completely unproveable statement.

    I'm not sure what constitutes 'blithering' in your universe, but if calling your statement 'f*cking stupid' is vulgar, then so be it. I'm vulgar. Now, what was your argument again?
     
  3. ScreamingRocketJet

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    Looks a bit like Jonah Lomu...when Lomu was 16...:rolleyes:
     
  4. ScreamingRocketJet

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    No point bothering Dimsie.

    You hit the nail RIGHT on the head when you said that most of these guys no jack all about OTHER sports or countries...but are prepared to lay claim to being better and bigger and stronger...
    :rolleyes:

    I'd fancy my chances against any of them in any sport. Boxing would be preferable.

    (Note : some moron will say he runs 400 miles a minute etc etc...and he's the best at everything...and bats off like an olympic rower....I bow before you)

    Now, more of a shock..a KIWI praising Austalians!

    Quote :

    :D

    Cheers mate.

    Actually (and I hate to say this, since they *are* our archrivals) if we're talking about per capita excellence, Australia has you lot knocked for six (cricket metaphor, look it up). 20 million people have managed to kick everyone's ass in cricket, rugby, league and a lot of Olympic sports besides; you have over ten times their population! Give them *some* credit, people
     
  5. ScreamingRocketJet

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    Interesting choice. A three year degree in most parts of the world. You learn of their history of attrocity and the damage they have cuased in extensive detail.

    Conversely, in the US it's a 3 minute course where you are told "Unlce Sam is always right" and you walk out and smile...?

    ;)
     
  6. Bailey

    Bailey Veteran Member

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    OK, I have to chip back into this thread...

    I object to the phrase "World Champions" essentially because the NFL is a closed shop. To enter a team in the NFL, I have to be awarded a franchise, which is based as much on my bank balance and demographics as anything else. With regard to football (soccer) in this country for example, any one can get a team into the top division. Theoretically, I could start a team in my local area league, get promoted into the next league up (if my team performance is good enough), and so on, right until I'm in Premiership. OK, it's very very unlikely, but at no stage will I need the say-so of a corporation to allow me to do this.

    Then, theoretically, if I win the EPL, participate in the European Champion's League and win that, I will be able to take my team to the World Club Championships (which incidentally doesn't carry much weight in the football world), win that, and reasonably be able to call my team "World Club Champions". All based on my performance on the field of play. It's this path of entry for anyone that justifies the title IMO.


    Also, in the rest of the world, "World Champions" is a phrase usually reserved for national sport. If I was asked about the world champions in a sport that I knew nothing about (say Water Polo), I would expect to hear a country's name, rather than a club (or "franchise").


    With regard to the whole Football vs Rugby thing: pads and body armour are irrelevant. Rugby is a different game. Most of the hits seen in American Football would be illegal in a rugby match. Those US guys need that padding, and the rugby players don't. I raised the point of the 300lb lineman specifically because I thought they were amongst the only NFL players that wouldn't convert well to rugby. Most of all the other positions I would expect to translate with varying degrees of success.

    Warren Sapp would struggle playing rugby. You guys do realise that it is not allowed to tackle a player without the ball in rugby? I've seen the guy, and his straight line speed is impressive for a guy his size, but in the end, a simple offload of the ball to another player would mean that by the time he got to me and tackled me, that would be deemed 'late' and result in a penalty. Lomu vs Sapp? No contest. Sapp is heavier and stronger (which is saying something, because Lomu is a monster), but Jonah's lateral movement is nothing short of amazing for a man of his size. Don't forget that in a rugby match, Sapp would most likely be isolated one on one with Lomu, out wide on the field, and Lomu is running at him. A couple of sidesteps, and gone.

    Playing US Football, different story. I don't know where you'd play Lomu, WR or RB? He has good hands and footspeed, which leads me to think WR, but he's such a powerful runner, maybe RB... Either way, I don't know that he'd be 'dominating'. Football (your variety) just doesn't suit his skills as well, areas of strength for him just wouldn't be utilised. Which is exactly what you'd say if Michael Vick played rugby. He'd do well, but you wouldn't be using his skills to their full potential.



    Phew, long post. I'll look for some Lomu footage, but take it from someone who has watched both sports, his athleticism and physicality is awesome. Even if he's not American! ;)
     
  7. Timing

    Timing Member

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    The Olympics is the best survey of all the athletes in the world even with all the stupid events they have and the US won the most medals in 2000 and 1996. The US dominates the global team sports they participate in (basketball) and the major individual sports like golf, tennis, and track and field. Even frikken Cuba had more track and field medals than Australia in 2000.

    When they give out the first per capita Olympic medal or championship trophy then you can make your argument.
     
  8. ScreamingRocketJet

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    Best post I have read.

    And (forgets Aussie bias) it came from a Pom ;)

    Well put. You used to be GBRocket I see. I wondered what happened to him:)

    Just betwen me and you, football is the number one game in the world obviously...no contest.
     
  9. Bailey

    Bailey Veteran Member

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    I don't want to sound picky, but don't you participate in football (soccer), and the other team sports too? I know these sports are not big over there, but then basketball isn't a big game in a lot of the countries that dominate the other team sports.

    The US should justifiably be proud of their track and field athletes, who I understand don't get a large amount of media coverage in their own country. That is a real shame. The USA produced the most impressive athlete I've ever seen (not Carl Lewis). Michael Johnson. That was a dominant sportsman!
     
  10. dimsie

    dimsie Member

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    Awww, that's mean. Really, I think postgraduate history programmes in the USA are great: nuanced, challenging, interesting... If I ever *finish* the Ph.D. (by no means a sure thing!), I'll be proud to have a UH after my name, even if you all think the school sucks. :)

    Timing, my *point* is that obviously the USA has some great athletes but saying, as you did, that all American athletes are better than all athletes in other countries is really stupid! Particularly because even if you accept the Olympics argument (which I don't, necessarily), other countries have a much higher medal-winning rate per size of population (and per size of team). Look at this table:

    http://www.photius.com/rankings/medals2.html

    Now, of course you guys won more medals. There are more of you! But that doesn't prove that all of your athletes are better than the rest of the world's athletes! It seems so obvious...

    Oh, and you lost that basketball championship last year. Remember?
     
  11. DVauthrin

    DVauthrin Contributing Member

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    Don't you mean programs, dimsie ;)? And you call yourself an intellectual ;)?

    Warning: this post is not to be taken seriously, you have been warned.
     
  12. Timing

    Timing Member

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    We participate in soccer of course but it's not higher than fourth on the list of US team sports and that's a big fall off from third. I'd say our lack of success in the World Cup is more due to lack of interest than to being an athletically inferior soccer playing nation. I think that if historically, soccer were our national sport that we would be among the best if not the very best team in the world quite easily. In fact during the last World Cup you got the sense from the foreign press that there was some serious whining and moaning that the US was improving and could become a power if more resources were put behind soccer.



    I definitely did not say that all American athletes are better than all athletes from whatever country, totally not my intent there. Per capita might be great for national pride but that's not what we were talking about really.

    The US won 80 something games in a row with NBA players before this last world championship which is pretty dominant I'd say. Only like 3 or 4 of the 24 NBA All-Stars this year are from foreign countries.
     
  13. Cohen

    Cohen Contributing Member

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    Okay already!

    I'll give the NFL a try... ;)
     
  14. dimsie

    dimsie Member

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    I speak real English, you know. ;)
     
  15. Mudbug

    Mudbug Member

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    Actually, I think that Lomu at 265-275 pounds is too heavy to play wide receiver. It's important to be able to make sharp cuts to elude coverage. While Lomu may have good hands and can break tackles, I doubt that he would able to get open for passes. Comparisons to Jerry Rice and Terrell Owens are unwarranted.

    I think that Lomu is also too tall to play running back. Successful running backs are able to run with their "pads" low and 6' 5" is just too tall.

    He could play quarterback but I'm guessing that he has never thrown a forward pass in his life. :)

    Probably the best position for him on offense is tight end where he could work against linebackers or safeties in coverage. But as Bailey pointed out, Lomu would probably not be using his skills to their full potential.

    And yes, I think that it is a bit arrogant to refer to the Super Bowl as the World Championship.

    I think that there is more validity to refer to the NBA champions as world champions since there are a lot of internation players in the NBA. If the Kings or the Mavs win the NBA finals this year, 2 of 5 starters on each team will be international players.
     

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