Of course , not only after tonights loss but after many of the inconsistent losses am I still making a case to trade for Shareef. I know I have mentioned this in other threads and few have agreed and some have disagreed, but thats the point of these forums. I make the case good or bad because I really think the guy is a pretty good player, but most of all he would be a great addition not only to our team this yr, but to the team yrs from now. At the age of 26, he can be a ficture along side Ming for yrs and yrs. Here are the negatives: He makes 11m per yr Teams he's played on has been horrible for the most part Some still see him as somewhat of a tweener somehow. All those concerns about his salary,ability to make the tem better and position are all valid, but if you look deeper maybe you'll understand my thought about attaining a player of his caliber. He's 26yrs old Consistent 18-20 pts and 8-10 rebs Competes and matchups at both positions Gives us a chance to get rid of Taylors salary Personally, I'm not enamored with the guy like Rudy has been and is of Glen Rice, but I do and have watched the guy since entering the league in 96. With the exeption of a few Kobe,Allen,Iverson,and Marbury, no player in the 96 class has been as consistent as he has been. It may be true that those mentioned players have had winning records on the teams theyhave been on, but with the exception of Iverson, none has had to or suppose to carry their respective teams. His record is not reflective on his talent or production like Brand or Bibby (before he was traded to Sac) because he's played on some poorly coached and organized teams. I look through the west and again I see the same reason why the Rockets still play with inconsistencies on offense. I looked at all the teams ahead of the rockets and found pretty much the same thing as before. Every team ahead of the Rockets have a big guy who can deliver 18-20pts and 8-10rebs every night except Phoen. If yo start with Sac,Dall,Port,SA,Minn,Utah, all those teams have a guaranteed 18-8 post player. Of course we have one of the biggest mismatches in the league in Ming , but he's a rookie and even though he's seem to be coming off the wall, is still not all we need. Enter Shareef. No matter what position he has played or on what team he has played, he's always been a 20 pt 8 rebs 47%fg guy. From his early days with the Grizz, to his couple of yrs with ATL. No matter what gameand what day, he will give you those numbers and take 1 les shot than Mobley to get it. Adding Shareef and possibly trading Taylor,Mobley, and maybe even Griffin would give the rockets a consistent post player to play by Ming who can draw fouls ,run the court and rebound. Of course he may not be the shot blocker Griffin is or may become, but its pretty safe to assume Griffin nor Taylor is no where close to the consistent inside/outside scorer he is. Of course like I mentioned earlier there are trade off to every kind of trade offer that is pondered. I would love to have a Elton Brand if I could get SAR. I'm just one of those people that don't think you trade in your conference if you can help it. Trading Mobley,Taylor and Griffin free's up about 30 shots in which the Rockets can redistibute. SAR can take Mobleys,14 and the other 16 can be given to Ming first,Posey2nd and whoever else after that. The key being that every night, teams will know they would have to worry about Ming and Shareef inside and Francis outside. Posey could be the Christie type of 2 guard compliment to Francis and the 3 spot could be held down by old man Rice until either Morris or Nachbar is ready to take it from him. Cato could back up Ming and SAR while Hawkins backs up posey and Norris backs up Francis. All debates are welcome, but just think how many less scoring slumps and dry spells our team would endure by having an option like him.
I'd just like to add to the negatives that he's a horriffic defender. Other than that, I'd like to have him. But to be quite honest, it would pretty much be a final move for us. Reef 11M, Steve 12M, Ming will get the MAX too. Do we want to be locked up like that? From what I've seen, teams that lock up their 2 MAIN players and then surround them with as many cap efficient contracts as possible win big time. That's what we need to do. This is why I prefer trading MoT for Horry. We'll get out of (most) of Mo's contract, while improving, and having the luxury of MR CLUTCH in the playoffs. Then we let him walk before he affects Griffin. Also, I don't think Reef can be a PF in the West, which makes him our SF. Aren't we a bit overstocked there? (Rice, Posey, Boki, T-Mo) We got our defensive swingman, and he brought more thanw e asked for. Now, we need to fill one more need, which is a bruiser on the inside. PJ Brown, Tyrone Hill, Anthony Mason, someone in this mold. Then our defense becomes consistent, and we start getting rid of big contracts. Francis, tied up. Ming, will be tied up. Mobley's contract/production is brilliant, but seperating him from Steve may be a positive move. After that, we start dealing with the contracts in this order: MoT Moochie Rice Cato I expect AT LEAST one deal before the beginning of next season. Reef earns too much money to NOT play defense. If I'm paying someone the MAX, I'd want defense and offense. Yes, I know Steve isn't exactly the second coming of The Glove, but he brings something special. Reef would be a TERRIFIC player, for around 7-8M a year.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/55512p-52009c.html In the midst of another miserable season, the Hawks are frantically trying to trade Glenn Robinson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim and/or Jason Terry. http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/epaper/editions/wednesday/sports_e37328ad45f632f3007f.html Babcock would not mention the players he is offering in trade, but the implication is that he is looking to move those who are not producing. Among that group is Ratliff, who is averaging 7.6 points and 7.3 rebounds in a 29.5 minutes a game. Ratliff is frequently in early foul trouble and complains he is not getting the help needs from his forwards. Ratliff is fifth in shot blocking at 2.51. Houston trades: C Kelvin Cato PF Maurice Taylor SF Glen Rice SG Cuttino Mobley PG Moochie Atlanta gets the size its looking for in the front-court with Cato and Taylor who have played well together when given the chance. They get the hustle player they covet in Mobley, a decent PG that has some chemistry with him and a big contract that ends after next year (Rice). This is 4 young core players of a 47 win team year before last. They also shake up a team heading nowhere and give the fans something new to look at. C Kelvin Cato PF Maurice Taylor SF Glen Robinson SG Cat PG Moochie Playing in the weak East and with that backcourt Taylor may actually start averaging double digit rebounds. Houston receives: PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim PG Jason Terry C Nazr Mohammed C Theo Ratliff SF Criss Crawford TRADE ACCEPTED Houston gets a player (Terry) that knows how to get other players involved. We also get a player at the PF spot whose talent can really open up things for Ming and 2 decent backup centers. This would give us a potent offense. C Ming PF SAR SF Posey SG Francis PG Terry And when we need D. C Ming or Ratliff PF Griffin SF Posey or TMo SG Hawkins or Posey PG Francis I know it would never happen but dreaming keeps my mind off how bad we are playing.
Lee -- I often agree with your points. However, Sane is correct in pointing out that SAR would leave us very much in the position of the Knicks capwise. True, we would have better players than the Knicks have in their current dilemma, but nevertheless our hands would be tied. The only attribute that I see right now that holds Eddie (and Ming) back is the lack of pure aggression. If they can discover that without the insanity of an Artest or Wallace, both will be awesome. Amare Stoudemire, for example, has that pure aggression and that -- at this point -- makes him a better player than Griffin even though Griffin has more "tools" or "skills." If we are going to trade one of our PFs, wouldn't it be better to get a Troy Murphy from Golden State or Zach Randolph from Portland. I prefer Murphy (despite Randolph's size and strength) because he seems to play smarter, has more range and appears to have strong rebounding instincts. I know this would give two PFs who are the same age competing for the position, but this would be a good thing, would it not?
grr.. I really don't like talking trades too much.. I really don't see why we should get Ratliff. Yeah he's a good defensive center-forward but I'm thinking he's kinda redundant with Cato, actually I'd rather have Cato who is younger and a better rebounder. Ratliff is getting on in years.. it'll be what.. his tenth season soon? I don't want SAR either. Sure he's a good offensive player, but where's the D?? And we're gonna have to pay him bundles. There's really not many players I'd trade for. Wouldn't mind having Daniels as a backup pg.. wouldn't mind getting Wilcox as a future forward prospect. If we could get a relatively young pf who plays good d and is respectable on the offensive end.. then yes by all means try... maybe Murphy, not sure about his d? Actually I wouldn't mind if the rotation looks like this: Francis/Daniels Mobley/Daniels/Hawkins Posey/TMo/Hawkins Murphy/Griffin/Wilcox Ming/Cato pf spot needs some tweaking (heh what I wouldn't give for ben wallace or brand).. with Griffin and Wilcox that position would suck for at least another two seasons... but then it would be fearsome. Daniels is a young solid guard. He passes well and plays well with a big man (spurs with duncan). Better yet he has experience playing with a big man and he's not a bad shooter. His to's are low and he'd add a little more size (although not much) to the pg spot. But at least he'll provide more D than francis or mooch.
I'm pretty sure that he played all those yrs in the west as a pf and did pretty well. 3 contracts aren't thatbad if its 3 good players. The Knicks got screwed because they gave Shandon 6mill per for 7yr, Eiseley the same, Spreewell the max as well as Houston the Max. Not to mention they gave Weatherspoon about 5 mill per for 7 yrs and not to mention charlie ward the same. I've been watching and just because the guy doesn't block shots don't mean you don't play defense. Did he play bad defense against our forwards? Have you seen games where the opposing teams pf have gone off against him? I just think its still Adding by subtracting. He get Mobleys shots, and Griffin and Taylor shots are redistributed. Our team is still getting manhandled because Griffin and Taylor are too inconsistent. You want to talk about long contracts. What about the 8 mil per yr for a guy avg 7pts and 30%fg from the floor.If it could be done, i would do it.
I've always seen Shareef as an empty stats type guy like Antawn Jamison. He puts up numbers but they just don't mean anything when it comes to winning. Plus as others have said, he can't play defense. No go on Shareef!
Just like when Bibby was 18 and 8 for the grizz and is considered an avg by posters on this board. He then goes to a team with a good coach and good players and is considered the best player or most clutch on that team. Its crazy because when Francis puts up these gaudy number on a LOSING team then he's the greatest, but when someone else does it, its because they're on losing team. The same was said about Brand,Bibby and now Shareef. Blocking shots don't always equal good defense. He no worse defender than the 2 we have playing the 4 right now. Griffin isn't strong or quick enough and Taylor is just all out slow as molasses. Combine that with we get production out of one or the other every 3rd or 4th game and that is why I'm saying lets do it. Its all healthy conversation and discussion ,so no one should get offended by someone else comments.
What are you talking about? Please get informed. Of the players I suggested Mohamed has the longest contract remaining which is three years. All the rest are 2 except for Terry which is in the last yearof his contract.
You have three guys that can play, but none are leaders. Shareef is a good low post scorer and rebounder, but cannot lead his troops. He failed to in Vancouver, and he is not doing it in Atl. either Big Dog is a terrific scorer, but again, no leadership abilities. Terry.....quick athletic guard, good shooter, can't lead any better than a one legged man in an asskicking contest. (I am not even sure what that means, but Terry is not a leader). Too many Indians, no chiefs. What do you think would happen if you put Jason Kidd on that team? Stockton? Even a guy like Bobby Jackson?
I've watched Shareef for years and I really like him. I think he'd be a great complement to Ming and Francis. Three max players is do-able. We'd have to kill the bench fat contracts - good. We also have some time before we max Ming. Get decent contracts on supporting cast with three complementary stars and it's hard to beat. You can't stop 3 options. I'd just like the Rockets to make a move and get one of the good players out there. There's 3 or 4 good options. We'll be much better off for the future to unload some of our contracts and some of our boneheads. We can always trade a good player away again if it's just bad chemistry. Our current cast is going nowhere, and we should maximize this opportunity.
1) Reef played SF in Vancouver 2) Forget shotblocking. Houston was very close to getting him but didn't because his defense was so bad that he wasn't worth it. Watch him, you'll see, his defense is in fact HORRIBLE. 3) It's NOT okay to have 3 MAX contracts when 2 of them play NO defense at ALL. Here's another reason I don't want to do this: I'd rather stay put with a brilliant Posey with Rice backing him up the rest of the season, than acquiring Reef forever. Why? because next year, we'll get a good player trading Rice, and Posey will be re-signed. Posey scores consistently, and takes high percentage shots, while rebounding and defending with energy unmatched by anyone else on the team. We can re-sign him to come off the bench even, and I'd rather have that over Reef. Teams are geared up to trade in the offseason, I'm sure we'll find something really good. For example, Denver might not be succesful courting anyone next season, so they might want to have cap space the following summer too by trading their contracts for Rice. Same for San Antonio. In addition to that, Mobley may be on the way out if he doesn'tplay smart ball consistently for the rest of the season, and his contract is brilliant. Either trade Mo for Horry, or stay put for a deal that doesn't have so much risk.
"You can't stop 3 options." Pasox, we're getting him from Atlanta...Home of the disastrous 3-options project. Two main options, with HARDworking supporting payers. Posey is one. Griffin is another. We ahve to determine Mobley's role in our future, and re-tool the bench in the offseason.
Is Glen Rice an empty stats guy? He put up a lot of numbers on crappy teams in Charlotte and Miami, but won nothing. He put up less than spectacular numbers in LA, and won 3 rings. Did he magically figured out how to put up non-empty stats? I just don't buy this whole idea.
Sane said we didn't get Shareef because he didn't play defense. welll we got Rice. We got Francis. All those times we played Vancuver when Shareef was there, what forwards on our teams went off? When he played in the west , players didn't have big days on him, thats a bunch of crap. Just like because his team didn't do well in Vancuver even though they had talent is his and Bibby fault. I'm willing to bet, if West was in charge before last yr draft, Shareef wouldn't have been traded nor would Stromile Swift been drafted. Bad team make bad decisions. Vancuver knew thay had a pg in Bibby and a pf in SAR and a so called center in Reeves, why draft Francis and then have to trade him when you had Odom,Hamilton and Marion on the board? Piss poor decision. Someone noted we need to trim the fat, hich wouldn't be that hard considering the only long contract we wouldhave on the bench would be Cato. For all his shortcomings, that 6mil per yr looks alot better than the 8per for taylor. Its still open, but just because a guy doesn't win but produces doesn't men he's not a real good player. Pretty much, Francis can be put in that category also. Yeah, the fa market will be flooded with quality people. You better rethink this because its not going to be as good as people think. thats why som say that teams wil make a move for a guy like him because he will be as good if not better than anything offered in the fa market. Make no mistake, if Seattle pulls this deal and La continues to go, we'll be on the outside looking in and conveying our lotto pick to the devil advocate in West. You can be sure if he has 2 lotto picks and some of those players that people want, he will make a move to get up and draft a really good player to go along with gasol. We already have problems with that team, loading them up will only make it more difficult in the future.
Shareef is a great talent, but I really think we have to get away from getting any more one on one players. I'm afraid if the team traded for Shareef all we would see is Shareef in the post and everyone else on the court watching, which would be essentially the same thing as all the players standing around watching Cat ISO. The stagnant offense is never going to take the Rockets anywhere. Under a different coach, maybe it would be a different story. A Posey type, or Brian Grant type, would be a better fit. Players that can get their points in the flow of the offense.
Do you know that we already have many bad contracts in our team (Mo Taylor, Rice, Cato etc)? A Pacers fan was right when he said to me that we would be just another NY Knicks if we didn't luck out Yao Ming.
Both Lee and Sane have made valid points.But I would pass up Shareef because he would have more trouble with the bigger fours and his lack of defense along with his big contract. Another thing to note is why would Atlanta take an inexperienced Griffin and a poorly conditioned Mo-T in the first place?
How do you think we would be able to get SAR without including a couple of those contracts? Due to Atlanta and Houston being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Atlanta and Houston had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. What part of that dont you understand? And no even without Ming we would not suck as much as the Knicks!
