ok guys, pick your corners. come out and tell why you believe "x" point guard is the best in the nba. i've given my opinion in another thread which got no, and i mean NO response. so here it goes again. let's hear it for the best point guard in the nba. one precursor: don't base this on potential. base it only on the player - THIS YEAR. IMO, let me go out on a limb. let me nip this in the bud. (there's two cliches in a row ) gary payton is not all that people in this bbs make him out to be. as for his bball ability, i'll be the first to admit that he is a very versatile player. but after watching him for the last two years, i am no longer prepared to don him as the "greatest point guard in the nba" or the "best player on the worst team". first things first (that's 3 cliches ). do you really want your point guard posting up 40-50% of the time? we're talking about dribbling the ball up court, waving players off, then posting up at 6'4". think about it. what about your big men? don't give me any crap about vin baker being a slug or patrick ewing being a slug. i won't argue too heavily , but they do need their touches in the paint. as does rashard. as does ruben patterson. when gp is posting, those guys have their collective thumbs up their asses (there's 4 cliches ) on the weakside. meanwhile, gp's court vision is limited to one side of the court. secondly, gary's outside shooting is suspect. very suspect. he doesn't follow through on his shots, and still has that tim hardaway-esque affinity for pulling up for the "quick three" on the way down court. for my point guard, i don't go for that. as for kidd, well, we won't get into his shooting. even with improvement, it isn't what i'd call dead-eye. third, gary's attitude is not what i'd call conducive to a winning environment. he berates his teammates both on and off the court. for an example, look at vernon maxwell. now, vernon IS coco-nuts. don't get me wrong. but vernon wasn't going to back down from the constant berations (is that a word?) from gary. so he hurled a dumbbell (appropriately and ironically) towards gary. his teammates this year and last year have complained about the same attitude from gary. there's a grand canyon between motivating and denIgrating your TEAMmates. jason kidd's attitude is pretty positive (unless your married to him ). steve, well, you gotta love steve (unless he's sitting on top of your head ). fourth, gary's defense is becoming stockton-esque. not that he doesn't play it, just that his one-on-one defense is not what it used to be. sure he can shut down jason kidd when he's extremely motivated (then again, jason can't shoot), but watch how steve blows by him. watch how many of the faster nba guards blow by him (j-will, kobe, etc.). it's not for lack of effort. it's for the inevitability of age. right now, i'd take the steve francis of 2001 over the gary payton of 2001. i'm not talking about for the next 10 years. that's a given. i'm talking about just for this season. i'd take steve. now, if you want to talk about who is the best point guard in the nba - RIGHT NOW - i'd go with a tie between steve and jason. gary in a distant third, not too far ahead of terrell brandon, in fact. the only reason i wouldn't take steve over jason is because jason has better floor leadership instincts. steve makes up for it in ability and hustle, but that floor leadership instinct means more on fast breaks, secondary breaks, etc. one on one, it's no comparison: steve francis hands down. but as for the "TEAM GAME" its barely jason. but not by much, and not for long. but for the purpose of this thread...assuming the players he plays with are all rockets...i'd take steve francis. gp?...get off the nba hype machine. MY WINNER FOR 2001: STEVE FRANCIS! [This message has been edited by verse (edited January 29, 2001).]
hmmm...no responses.... no one wants to fight? so, if i'm taking a beating on my own, is that masturbation? ah, nevermind. i'll wait for ya'll....
Payton scores 23.2 PPG Francis scores 19.1 PPG Payton dishes 8.5 APG Francis dishes 6.5 APG Payton plays D Francis plays no D Be realistic man! FOR NOW, Payton is a better player than Francis is. Steve might become better one day. but not yet. As for Kidd, he is what i call a REAL Point Guard. Does everything a Poing guard is required most to do. it's a close one between Kidd and Payton, with Francis right behind them. But i give my vote for Gary Payton....for now that is. ------------------ Dream Rejects Every Attempt Made [This message has been edited by CompaqC (edited January 29, 2001).]
First of all, I'm a HUGE Steve fan and I must admit that I've been guilty of a little channel hoping when he's not in games this season. But as far as a "BEST PG IN NBA" argument, Payton is still the best, with Jason 2nd followed VERY CLOSELY by Steve. Payton has the best all-around game and is the best clutch player, for now. But watch out for Kidd and Steve. I'd still give Jason a SLIGHT advantage over Steve because he's a better, more consistent defender and is superior at making his teammates better. But in 2 years, Steve WILL be the best PG in the NBA. ------------------ "ON-BEE-TAH-BULL!!", Hakeem Abdul Olajuwon, alumnus, University of Houston
so if i rack up plenty of numbers, despite being a cancer to my own team, that's ok by you, huh? c'mon CompaqC! give it some real thought! not just what the stats say!!! what do YOU think? i give you a damn dissertation against "gp" and you come back w/stats? don't you know there are three types of lies????
Is this a question about "best PG in the NBA"? Because if so I don't think you can limit it to those guys. T Brandon is very good (and owns the individual matchup with Steve). NVE is having perhaps his best season. Marbury is having a very good season on a very bad team. I hate Stockton, but he continues to produce. And BTW, my man Sammy isn't too bad himself. ------------------ I am Jack's utter lack of surprise. www.clutchtown.com
I think GP's the best PG. But I didn't say he was the best teammate or leader. ------------------ "ON-BEE-TAH-BULL!!", Hakeem Abdul Olajuwon, alumnus, University of Houston
Come on guys, Steve is not there YET...he's not even close defensively to Payton nor Kidd...he doesn't just have that toughness and looks like he slacks off quite a bit on D...Stevie can hang with Payton and Kidd offensively of course, but I've seen him getting torched one too many times on the other side of the ball this year to know that he is not the best point guard in the league right now...defense is as important as offense in basketball...you are not a complete basketball player if you can't play D! Steve's rebounding numbers are kind of inflated because of the lack of rebounders for the rockets wouldn't u think? [This message has been edited by ChenZhen (edited January 29, 2001).]
HP, Francis does not blow off the pick and roll as much as you say and go baseline. Often time people will take away the top and he will be forced to go baseline.Also, the ALMIGHTY Jason Kidd showed just how important he was to his team, when he led them to consecutive losses against the CELTICS and WIZARDS! I watch Kidd alot, and the guy just doesnt impress me. I could go into many reasons why steve is better than Kidd, but I'll save that fight for another day. ------------------
heyp, et al... so, if we're not speaking in terms of potential... if we're only speaking in the here and now... then it seems most people actually would rate their point guards as 1. KIDD 2. FRANCIS 3. GP if you take the hype away from "GP!" and look at the effect he has on the game and on his teammates, he's - like i said - below both JK & SF and not far ahead of terrell brandon, sam the man, van exel, and marbury. well, if that the case i'll give you two points: 1. JK is far superior to steve on the break; and 2. JK is far superior to steve at running a "motion" offense (though i not "entirely" sure phoenix runs a 4-1Flex) but does that weigh more than steve's ability to command a double team and create easy shots for his teammates? true, steve's "modus operandi" is more "difficult" (as heyp likes to say ), than kidd's but does it create easier shots in a 1/2 court set than kidd's effortless motion? i'd say steve's does create easier opportunities in a 1/2 court set. while he is weak at the pnr (no arguments there), he does have FANTASTIC court vision and awareness. how many times have you seen him - MIDAIR - pinned under the rim, only to flip it out - BLINDLY - to the top of the key for a bullard or kt 3? how many times for a kt flush? IMO, steve creates "EASIER" shots for his teammates (read: more wide open) because of the necessity of double teaming him. yes, if he ran the pnr better, he'd be unstoppable. he'd probably average 15 apg. seriously. i say that because, if you all have noticed, steve racks up bunches of assists in short time frames (7 in one quarter, 10 in one half). even so, i think to need the double steve outweighs the fluidity of jason kidd. hope that made sense. i'm going off the top of my head here !
Francis blows off the pick n roll at a high clip. If he would stop doing that, I would be so happy. tacomah, I watch this every game. I've been watching this since game one. My bet is that you have not until I told you about it. You probably just thought they were ISOs. They aren't. They are Francis blowing off the pick and choosing to go ISO on his own. I know for a fact that Rudy has given him the green light to do that, so I don't think he is being selfish. But, he does it too much for me. He is a very selfless player, but that does not necessarily mean he uses his teammates the best way possible. He blows of the pnr every game, several times. you are just not being objective. You are one of those people who can't take criticism of Francis. Cuttino runs a better pnr than Francis. easy. Tell me one thing you don't like about Francis. What is his weakness? Does he not have any. Is he truly superman. Tell me Tacomah, what is so impressive about a point guard with such low assist numbers and high TOs. Francis TOs because he dribbles himself into very dangerous sitation. He has great one on one moves, but he still slips and flips around going no where, thus losing sight of his team. He is great! He is the best on our team at playing PG. But he has a lot of improvement to go, before I call him a superstar. He's a star already; but not a superstar. And if you don't see that Kidd is great, well then you are taken the Phoenix Motion too much for granted. They cannot run that offense without Kidd. Kidd makes it work so easy, so effortless. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited January 29, 2001).]
verse Phoenxi does not run a 4 out 1 flex. And a 4 out 1 flex is not a Motion offense. Kidd has his team running a true player motion game. What we do, and the majority of the league is ball movement, not player motion.
not even close, huh? check the steals, sir. while you're at it, check the number of times kidd and gp have been torched this year. it's easy to be upset about steve giving points up because we see him all the time. but check out gp or kidd on nba league pass for a while. you'll see their drawers get left on the floor too! and PLEASE SHOW ME A JASON KIDD DEFENSIVE STAND!!!! i haven't seen it. sorry. no offense, but get off the nba hype-tit. kidd's defense is NOT all that. in fact, i'll call it AT BEST average. as for the inflated #s rebounding...steve's rebounding #s are that high because of his superior instincts. if you notice, steve's rebounds aren't of the "loose ball variety" they are "get the ball before everyone else does variety". BTW, that includes outrebounding the other team's big men. or are they all weak rebounders, too? lastly, if i can show you 5 games apiece where gp and kidd have been torched, does that make them no longer "the best nba point guard" for you?
Verse- I still argue that Francis doesn't create that many great opportunities for others. If that was the case his assist numbers would be much higher. Kidd and other PG have the ability to get the ball to their teammates when and where they want it. Yep Francis can break down a defense and that is a plus but breaking down the defense and being able to get the ball to the right person at the right time are two different things. Kidd has a much tougher time breaking down the D, yet he finds a way to make his teammates happy with great assists, Francis is still earning this.
yea, that's why i said i wasn't "entirely" sure. in fact, i don't think any other team in the league runs a TRUE player motion. if so, they suck at it ! seriously, that's a testimony to jk's intelligence. (wait...no more complements for jason! i'm trying to get people to start thinking and get off the damn nba-tit here!!! back to business....)
Plenty. Yes, that is impressive. No argument here. He had a great one to Hakeem last game! My point is, nearly every PG in the league can do that. And, he has an advantage because of his hang time. He can get better. I don't really think his assist numbers need to go up. In fact, if they do I think it likely is more about the team working together better, than Francis improving. Anyhow, I can't get into a semantics debate between "difficult" and "easy". Let me leave it at Kidd is incredible in the open court, the best since Magic, imo. Stockton is better than Francis in the open court. Payton is better. Also, I have a huge amount of respect for the Phoenix offense. stats and semantics is a boring argument for me. Francis can do more with his teammates. And the team can get better coordinating themselves with him. But that is just potential, right now. Right now, I can't claim him as #1. Top 4, sure, I'll say that. Right now, he is above schedule in my book. I really like what I see. I really like the potential there. True superstar potential. But, I bought season tickets for your fastbreaking Stevie. Kidd is better at that for sure!
i feel what you're saying. and i agree that kidd's timing on his assists is impeccable. jason kidd is damn near effortless. but could kidd's "effortlessness" (jesse jackson-ism there) make carlos rogers a decent center? could it make kelvin cato seem offensively talented? could it make shandon anderson a poor man's pippen (oops, bad comparison). how bout a poor man's pre-houston pippen? or could it make matt pig miller have 19 points and 17 boards? i don't think so. it takes a different kind of pg.
heyp: i don't intend for this to drag into semantics. and i hate stats. i only used them because of CompaqC. you can make stats say whatever you want to. all i'm trying to say (for everyone)... steve and jason are two "different" point guards. completely different approaches to offense. completely different approaches to defense. completely different approaches to fast breaks. so if you want to compare who's better, the only way to do it is to look at the effect they have on their team. that's why gary payton is COMPLETELY out of the equation. if you want to argue that jason plays better for his team, i won't argue. but don't give me nba hype about "the glove" or kidd's stifling d and above average shooting. i'm not buying it. all three get torched now! all three. but, in my opinion, if you have players with the "ability" of the rockets...steve's the man. on a bad team, which, sorry, we aren't far from...steve's the man.
<strong> if you want to argue that jason plays better for his team, i won't argue. but don't give me nba hype about "the glove" or kidd's stifling d and above average shooting. i'm not buying it. all three get torched now! all three.</strong> I agree with you on the fact that everyone gets torched...EVERYONE, even the great defenders like myself ...My point is that steve's been torched by AVERAGE point guards more frequently than kidd or payton in my opinion...I've seen Kidd like 6 or 7 games and his overall defense is a notch above francis. On D, Kidd is Smarter, more intense, more consistent, and more aware on the court (doesn't look like he's he's dozing off and falling asleep like Stevie is alot of times). When you brought up steals, didn't you say statistics are lies earlier? You can be a solid defender and not have any steals. You can also have lots of steals and be a horrible defender. true? there are no real stats that can prove that you are a great defender, just have to watch the game yourself and see the big difference in the two. ------------------
Anyway, I agree with most of what you say about Gary Payton, although I attribute a lot of his current attitude to blatent incompetance in certain other teammates (Baker kills me), and a long streak questionable personnel moves by the management. (Jim McIllvaine? c'mon, getting Ewing for no reason, FIRING GEORGE KARL, not paying Kemp the $$$) I lived in Seattle for a couple of years, and those guy in charge are a joke. But anyway, I do agree that Steve is a much better overall guard than people give him credit for. But I still think it's a lot closer than your calling it. ------------------ "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..." - Mark Twain -
