Let's see where Steve is on Pace of. . . Gary Payton: Year 1: 6.4 asst 2 steals 3 rbs 2.2 TO 7.2ppg Year 2: 6.2 asst 1.8 stls 3.6 rbs 2.15 TO 9.4 pp Year 3: 4,9 asst 2.2 Stls 3.4 rbs 1.8 TO 13.5 ppg Year 4: 6.0 asst 2.29 stls 3.3 rbs 2.11 TO 16.5 ppg John Stockton Year 1: 5.1 asst 1.3 stls 1.3 rbs 1.83 TO 5.6 ppgs Year 2: 7.4 asst 1.9 stls 2.2 rbs 2.05 TO 7.7 ppg Year 3: 8.2. asst 2.2 stls 1.8 rbs 2 TO 7.9 ppg Year 4: 13.8 ast 2.95 stls 2.9 rbs 3.2 TO 14.7 ppg Jason Kidd Year 1: 7.7 asst 1.9 stls 5.4 rbs 3.2 TO 11.7 ppg Year 2: 9.7 asst 2.2 stls 6.8 rbs 4.1 TO 16.6 ppg Year 3: 9.1 asst 2.1 stls 4.1 rbs 3.0 TO 9.9 ppg Year 4: 9.0 asst 2.4 stls 4.8 rbs 2.3 TO 11.6 ppg Steve Francis: Year 1: 6.6 Asst 1.53 stls 5.3 rbs 3.97 TO 18ppg Year 2: 6.5 asst 1.76 stls 6.9 rbs 3.31 TO 19.9 ppg Year 3: 6.4 asst 1.25 stls 7.0 rbs 3.88 TO 21.6 ppg Year 4: 6.1 asst 1.66 stls 5.8 rbs 4.06 TO 23.1 ppg man this Francis guy will never amount to anything Rocket River Just something for you to think about and discuss I think Stevie is doing JUST FINE
Steve's stats is very impressive. But to be fair, you should also list the minutes per game for all those guys.
Francis' assist to turnover ratio is atrocious though. I'm a fan of Francis' since his Maryland days, but he really needs to take care of the ball better.
why not compare them to a PF or a Center? I mean he doesn't play those position EITHER I am mainly emphasizing POINT GUARD DEVELOPEMENT Looking over the Stats of the 3 premeire PGs of the game today . . and where they started should tell us alot. Kidd had high turnovers Payton and Stockton did not score as much nor Rebound as much If they can overcome their deficiencies. . . .why do so many people think SF cannot? Rocket River
I don't quite get it...how does Stevie compare to these guys. I mean, are you trying to say all the others upped their scoring while their assists went down and turnovers went up. How is Stevie going to become these guys when, stat-wise, he's regressed in some areas. I love Stevie and I think he's improving but this comparison goes nowhere. If I wanted to play devil's advocate, I could compare him to Stoudamire: Damon Stoudamire: Year 1: 9.3 asst 1.4 steals 4 rbs 3.8 TO 19.0ppg Year 2: 8.8 asst 1.5 stls 4.1 rbs 3.6 TO 20.2 ppg Year 3: 8.1 asst 1.6 Stls 4.2 rbs 3.1 TO 17.2 ppg Year 4: 6.2 asst 1.0 stls 3.3 rbs 2.2 TO 12.6 ppg So is Stevie gonna regress like Stoudamire? Absolutely not. But by throwing out someone's stats like that, you can come away with any conclusion you like.
I love the Franchise, but I still think of him and Marbury as more scoring point guards then natural point guards. I believe that Franchise has a score first mentality similiar to guards like AI and Kobe where as Kidd and Stockton are more pure PGs. Although, Kidd seems to have decided to shoot more this year. I think the Rockets might be better if Stevie could play the 2 and the Rockets could get a more traditional 1.
I have posted about this before. Take a look at the ast to TO ratio of Steve for his first four seasons and compare to these other guys. Ast to TO is the single most important stat for a PG. The folks that have a beef with Francis dont have a problem with scoring and rebounding but assist to TO ratio which is what measures a POINT GUARD. These players you posted about were approaching or had approached the 3 to 1 ast to TO ratio mark in their careers by their fourth season. Steve has had trouble approaching even the 2 to 1 mark. This is why there is a line of thinking by a segment of posters on this board to let Francis do what he does best (score) and complement him with a steady distributor which Mobley or Moochie are not. Plain and simple, if the Rockets dont make a move before the deadline to address these needs, they will NOT make the playoffs this season.
Minutes or not, Steve is coming into his own and being the star we all new he would be... I would rather sacrifice his PPG avg. to increase his APG and give Yao the ball... Yao is such an unbelievable passer that he can balance out the inside-out game and give everyone, even CAT a chance to score...
Assists and turnovers are overrated. For one, there is ONE turnover per game separating the top 15 players in turnovers (1.5 for the top 30). That amounts to what, one more point a game for the other team, if that? That's meaningless. Assists-- Jason Kidd gets about 2 more assists per game than Francis. This amounts to anywhere from 4 to 6 points a game. But Francis scores 3 more points a game this year than Kidd. The most important thing-- how often does someone make an assist to win a big game? It doesn't happen because assists don't win games, big shots do. One famous assist was Jordan to Paxson against Phoenix. Well that was only possible because Jordan was a threat to score, and you have to make someone else beat you. Hakeem Olajuwon had as good a chance of having a big assist than Jason Kidd does. I wonder what Hakeem's assist-to-TO ratio was? What was Kenny Smith's assist-to-TO ratio? Who cares, right? What about Ron Harper? Derek Fisher? BJ Armstrong? It's not an important stat in the context of winning championships.
Freak, Actually, there is a pretty strong relationship between steadiness of guards and championship teams. No championship team has ever had guards as horrible in this category as the Rockets do. The fact that Steve is bad in this area really isnt the biggest issue; the combination of Steve, Cuttino, AND Moochie being piss poor is the issue. Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant for instance were pretty much in the 1.5-2.5 Ast to TO ratio ranges during their teams runs to championships which is fine b/c they had complements in their backcourt like Steve Kerr and Derek Fisher who were real steady with the ball and didnt make many mistakes. Kerr during the Bulls runs had seasons where he was a 4 to 1 Ast to TO ratio, and Fisher has been a 3 to 1 during each of the Lakers championship runs. I still have not been able to find any examples of teams that won it all with THREE guards as bad in this area as the Rockets guards. This is the reason the offense is up and down like crazy and shows zero consistency. Elite teams do a good job of taking care of the ball and not making excessive bonehead errors in addition to their effective defense and rebounding. Three or four idiotic decisions can mean the difference between winning and losing in the playoffs; the games are very close. I have seen enough of this team to make my conclusion that if they dont make a move to address this issue before the deadline, they are NOT going to make the playoffs.
I have a different idea about that ONE TURNOVER. Without the turn over, you may score 2 or 3 points, with the turn over the other team may score 2 or 3 points, that could be a 6 point difference. Say both team shoot around 45%, if you count 3 pointers and freethrows resulted by the turnover, it's reasonable to say that each turnover is worth about 2 points. I'm not even counting the momentum change by the turnover. Now you look at Rocket's points scored and points allowed this season: 93 verses 91.2. That's less than 2 points! And look at how many close games we had this year. With ONE less turnover each game, we could have been in top 4 of the west conference. With ONE more turnover each game, we could be a losing team. For example: We lost to Suns by 1 point in November, lost to Utah in overtime on Tudsday and now we are trailing Suns by 1 and a half game, trailing Utah by 2 and a half game. If we had one less turnover in each game and won, we would have 2 more wins and 2 less losses. Those two teams would have 1 less win and 1 more loss. That's a 3 game difference by 2 turnovers. The result: we could have been 6th in west in that case. Amazing, isn't it?
looking at francis' numbers for the past 4 years, i see them parallel to AI's numbers in these categories: turnover, assist and point. their turnovers and points go up while their assists go down. which beg the question, should francis be moved to shooting guard? even damon stoudamire averaged over 8 assists a game when he played for toronto?
Nice post RR. I think Francis is an excellent player. We have seen it at least twice this year (vs Utah/LA) when he has just dominated the other team and carried the Rockets to big wins. I think he is evolving into a great PG, that can carry the team when needed. He is looking to get his teammates shots and not forcing his shot. I think he is having to learn how to get the big guys (Yao) involved, he said himself that he hasn't played with a real big man before. I think he will only get better. My main concern is his defense, I think he can improve that though.
Past players to lead the league in turnovers per game: Magic Johnson Isiah Thomas John Stockton Jason Kidd I'd say Francis has some elite company.
If Steve can have that many assists as well. I agree that assist to turn over ratio is a better indication for a point guard's performance.
If only stats told the whole story. Talking about stats when will the NBA start keeping Basket_Ball_IQ stats. That is probably the most important stat I want to use in measuring point gurads next to Asst-TO ratio.
chou, Excellent points. I fully agree. Playoff type games tend to be very close and can come down to a few key possessions. This is why teams that win big make smart decisions with the ball and dont make tons of idiotic reads. The margin for error decreases a LOT when you are playing tough games against tough games. James, Yup fully agree. I did a stat comparison like this a few months back and Iverson's Ast to TO ratio numbers his first couple of yrs were almost identical to those of Francis. Those same numbers prompted Larry Brown to move Iverson to 2 guard and get rid of talent like Jerry Stackhouse and Larry Hughes that only magnified the same errors. Philly replaced these players that looked excellent on paper with solid role fillers ie Eric Snow and Aaron McKie which led to a trip to the Finals. I personally think this would work even better in Houston with Francis. I can guarantee you that Steve wont be shooting the garbage percentages that Iverson does from the field. Francis has a MUCH more dependable jump shot and MUCH better shooting range than Iverson. Steve would be EXTREMELY tough to defend in that situation. The focus of the offense would move to Steve and Yao with other smart and intelligent role players fitting in around them. This is the type of move this team needs to get to the next level. Hopefully, we will see some action before Feb 20, otherwise we are in for another non-playoff season.
