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Spitzer's Absurd Techniques Once Again Fail..

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by F.D. Khan, Mar 24, 2006.

  1. F.D. Khan

    F.D. Khan Member

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    I think these techniques are deplorable that the NY AG uses. He makes vast accusations, puts it in the public spotlight when a company is most vulnerable and just looks for a quick payoff.

    Its ironic that he would be against a deferred taxes savings tool that would help so many during retirement and teach them to save and not depend on the government and social security. I think this guy's techniques are deplorable and he should not be able to get away with this. The sad part is that these lawsuits and settlements are not benefitting you and me. When companies are forced to settle, have lawsuits and have more insurance, the prices of their goods and services goes up and we end up having less discretionary spending money and the government again decides better how to spend our money than us. After all how would WE know how to spend our money! :rolleyes:


    REVIEW & OUTLOOK (Editorial)

    The Spitzer Savings Plan

    954 words

    24 March 2006

    The Wall Street Journal

    A10

    English

    (Copyright (c) 2006, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.)

    New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer has been struggling to counter the public perception that he has a "temperament" problem. If his recent treatment of H&R Block is anything to go by, he needs a few more anger management sessions.

    Mr. Spitzer blew a gasket last Friday after Block CEO Mark Ernst had the temerity to deny, in an op-ed in this newspaper, the AG's charges that his company had fraudulently sold retirement savings plans. His Lord High Executioner threatened Block with "vast fines" for refusing to roll over. And he further warned that he might now find it more difficult to keep H&R Block "alive and viable" (read: corporate indictment), and promised to "dig deeper" into its affairs.

    So rather than let a jury evaluate his charges, Mr. Spitzer is once again threatening to use his power to ruin a company before it even steps into a courtroom. Not that his accusations appear to have much to do with the law in any event. It has escaped no one that this is tax season, and, lo, Mr. Spitzer's target happens to be the nation's largest tax preparation firm. H&R Block has had a string of bad news -- including miscalculating its own state income taxes -- and may have seemed vulnerable to a hit-and-run settlement. Mr. Spitzer was clearly eager for such a painless victory, offering to settle for less than $30 million before filing his $250 million suit.

    Block is resolutely defending its Express IRAs, and on the public record so far rightly so. Nearly 600,000 Block customers have used this product, which encourages low-income individuals to divert a portion of their tax refunds into Individual Retirement Accounts. Because Express IRAs have a minimum deposit requirement ($300) far below that of most competitors, and because the money is put into safe (albeit low-interest bearing) money market accounts, Mr. Spitzer claims most users are paying more in fees than they receive in interest and have thus been defrauded.

    That must be news to the many Democrats and liberal think tanks plumping for precisely such accounts. As academic studies have long shown, savings tend to rise with income. Only about one in eight Americans in the bottom 20% of income levels have retirement accounts. Many don't work for companies that offer retirement plans, while the idea of making regular contributions can be daunting to households that survive paycheck to paycheck.

    One popular response has been to let workers funnel tax refunds directly into private retirement accounts. Low- and moderate-income families receive large tax refunds (in 2001, they saw checks totaling some $78 billion, or $1,500 per family), and many of them view refunds as "extra" money to be put aside. Supporters include the Brookings Institution, the Pew Charitable Trusts, and House Democrats Rahm Emanuel and Jim Cooper -- who have sponsored legislation to require the IRS to set up direct-deposit procedures. Does Mr. Spitzer plan to subpoena all of them?

    It was against this background that Block introduced its Express IRA in 2001. The company also hoped to exploit another Congressional initiative -- this one part of the Bush tax cuts -- called the Saver's Tax Credit. Anyone who earns up to $50,000 a year, pays taxes and contributes to a retirement plan gets a "match" from the government of up to 50%. Block has helped nearly half of its Express IRA clients claim this savings subsidy.

    The company says its average Express IRA customer earns just $30,000 a year, 42% had previously never opened a savings account, and 20% lacked even a checking account. Yet even after Block's fees, 78% of accounts opened between 2001 and 2005 have had positive net tax savings and interest earnings. Express IRA accounts have accumulated some $360 million. They have also inspired more thrift. Roughly 23% of clients who made an initial refund contribution have since recontributed -- often at a higher amount. Some 40,000 clients are depositing an average of about $50 a month. And some 27,000 have accumulated enough to graduate to a brokerage account.

    None of these facts made it into the Spitzer complaint, which cherrypicks data to paint a one-sided picture. While H&R Block has been selling its Express IRA for four years, Mr. Spitzer focused on accounts opened in 2002. That year marked the beginning of the nationwide Express IRA program -- before some clients could build up balances -- and was a time of very low interest rates. It was also the year before the Saver's Tax Credit kicked in, which has sent some $50 million in additional tax benefits to Express IRA users.

    Thus Mr. Spitzer was able to claim that 79% of Express IRA customers had lost money. To reach this figure the AG also had to include clients who initially contributed a low amount and soon withdrew their money -- incurring a substantial federal tax penalty. In our book this is called consumer choice, and was to be expected given that many users were new savers under financial pressure. As for Block's fees, they remain among the lowest for IRA operators, which explains why the company says it is still losing money on this product.

    All of this might be difficult to grasp for Mr. Spitzer, who can afford to invest in hedge funds to finance his comfortable lifestyle and retirement. But his detachment from the struggles of working people is no excuse for launching a political attack on a law-abiding company, the main benefit of which would be to foreclose a promising avenue for low-income savers.
     
  2. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    "Spitzer's Absurd Techniques Once Again Fail..."


    What? :confused: Love him or hate him, he's won billions of dollars of settlements for the state of NY and indirectly generated significant reform, and will coast to victory as the next Governor over whatever stiff the moribund state republican party finds (if it finds one) in the unlikely event he beats Tom Suozzi.

    How has he failed "again"? LOL, only in the delusional fantasies of the WSJ editorial page or somebody who doesn't have a clue what they're talking about has he been repeatedly failing.
     
  3. F.D. Khan

    F.D. Khan Member

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    So do you think the express IRA accounts are wrong and are defrauding investors? Or would you rather not encourage individuals to benefit from tax deferred accounts?

    Do you believe manipulating statistics in that manner in order to push a company to pay up during a season in which their reputation is the cornerstone of their business is not slanderous?
     
  4. F.D. Khan

    F.D. Khan Member

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    He has not won anything, those costs paid by the companies are going to be passed on to consumers. Tactics like this forcing companies to settlements increases the prices of all goods and services to you and me.

    Its ironic that some of his strives to make investing better has simply increased regulations and so many investment firms now raise their minimum investments for clients because of higher fees. So who is losing out in this situation Sam? Smaller investors.
     
  5. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    So where do you draw the line to balance corporations from screwing the people, and the government from screwing the corporations? Isn't there a middle ground somewhere????
     
  6. F.D. Khan

    F.D. Khan Member

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    I believe that there were wrong doings in many corporations. If it was criminal than I believe the executives should be liable, just as someone robbing a store is. I think Adelphia, Worldcom and Enron are examples of illegal activities that should lead to criminal and civil penalties that are equatable to the lives they have destroyed.

    But there must be a line drawn as to the ability to bully companies using government power into rapid settlements using their good name. Spitzer's techniques are to find a practice that can be statistically manipulated to show fraud, and then to use the media to adversely affect the company's business hoping for a quick settlement and payoff. Most companies will simply pay up as their reputations are quite important to their business.

    This is not why our government is here.
     
  7. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    I don't know that much about the IRA suit other than browing thru the press releases, I do know that a lot of tax preparers have historically found cynical ways to exploit their customers (see e.g. "rapid refunds") in the past. So yes - I am giving Spitzer the benefit of the doubt that potential claims exist. What's your basis for doubting it? A review of the elements of common law fraud in NYJUR and the Complaint? Or pasting a WSJ editorial? No need to respond.

    I know for a fact that it's not slanderous because of many reasons (slander is spoken, not written, qualified immunity privilege, etc). If his Complaint is baseless it will be tossed out of court and he could be sanctioned.

    Now, explain to me again how achieving all or most of one's goals = failing again, in your words.
     
  8. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    That's about the dumbest justification of fraud I've ever heard.

    The guilty pleas stemming from many of his investigations tell me that targets of his investigations were engaging in illegal practices - which is essentially stealing money, the costs of which are passed on to consumers as well.


    ....and criminal defrauders, price fixers, etc....
     
  9. insane man

    insane man Member

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    what goods do these companies that spitzer has gone after produce? none. services only. and only for the fairly wealthy or at least upper middle class for the most part. secondly his constituents are the people of new york who he has gotten billions of dollars for.

    the notion that he's a failure is about as absurd is your voodoo economics that you love to pimp.
     
  10. F.D. Khan

    F.D. Khan Member

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    Well this is the issue that we are discussing. Stressing to individuals to save money and invest into an IRA which is a tax-deferred vehicle is smart investing. The largest cost to investors are not fees, but taxes. These are the lowest cost IRA's on the market and are invested in money market funds in order to lower volatility. If it was invested in any investment tool, i'm sure Spitzer would sue HR Block's product even if the historical return was better. But they did this to limit the fees.

    The fact that people took money out of their IRA's and were penalized by THE GOVERNMENT, not H&R Block, is a silly notion to determine the pool of individuals lost money after only a few years in which money market rates have been very low. If these people continued to invest in these tax-deferred instruments, then that money will compound and give them something to retire on.

    It seems you would rather hurt business owners and shareholders than promote utilizing tax deferred savings plans. Do you feel this money from this suit would be spent towards taking care of these individuals when they retire?
     
  11. F.D. Khan

    F.D. Khan Member

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    Voodoo Economics? The wealthy do not use H&R Block to do their taxes. Its primarily for lower to medium income individuals that do not have complicated tax returns. Frivolous suits like these increase the prices of H&R Blocks services to all of its clients. So prices increase to lower and medium income families.
     
  12. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    I feel that if IRA, as alleged was defrauding people and giving them lousy advice in order to pad their own bottom line, they should be made to cease doing so, as well as pay some reparations
     
  13. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    Companies that perform illegal activities should be prosecuted. Spitzer has a history of ambitiously pursuing those corporations who break the law.

    I love it. Corporate folks should be held accountable for the laws they break just as much as anyone else.
     
  14. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    If your business is squeaky clean, you should have nothing to fear of Elliot Spitzer.
     
  15. SWTsig

    SWTsig Member

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    now where have i heard that before....
     
  16. insane man

    insane man Member

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    theres a huge difference between corporations and individuals.

    this is my biggest beef with the courts. giving corporations practically the same status as citizens is absurd.
     
  17. SLIMANDTRIM

    SLIMANDTRIM Member

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    H&R Block might have lost money on the IRA product, but those funds were usedto finance it's highly profitable mortgage division. That's why it was worth it to them. The interest rates clients were earning was not competitve at all, and relied on a captive unsavy audience who didn't know any better.
    If your acting in the capicity as a financial advisor, which these tax advisors were, then they have a fidiciary responsible to know the client and their financial situation. Bottom line, if your client is poor, then their is a high probability they are going to need that money soon. Don't harm them and push them into a IRA with high exit fees and tax penalities.
     
  18. insane man

    insane man Member

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    why not? its the unbridled capitalist way according to fd and company. survival of the fittest. those too dumb/busy/un-educated/trusting should be left destitute and we should let them go hungry and die.
     
  19. updawg

    updawg Member

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    From what I have read, H&R Block was killing these people with this vehicle. The fee's etc would actually make them lose money. this was a good move by spitzer from what I have seen.
    Although I agree with where you are coming from F.D. but on this one it was a scam. This was a bad program by H&R from what I have read.
     

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