Some More Good old Fashioned Anti-Papism

shoot em in the knee's and repent.

 

I understand how holy the Eucharist is, but the secular government can't give that much weight. And, if someone were to steal some of the Body or if he were to desecrate it on the web, I don't think that'd count much as intimidation. So, I don't see a lot of application of hate crime status. It is being jerk, and worrying too much about what other people believe. I think it's pretty sad this guy has devoted that much mental energy to despising others for their religious affiliation.

 

Anti-Papism? Or is it Anti-Catholic?

 

I think it is different because the vandalism of that statue was done in physical proximity, was specific to the church, and identifiable. Congregants could reasonably feel specifically threatened by this person who has physical access to the premises, anti-social behavior, and implicitly a hatred for this church.

The guy with the blog would be far away from the church and congregants, would not know either of them personally, and would not even have an identifiable artifact of the church. Congregants have no reason to fear for their own safety. They wouldn't be able to tell if a wafer came from their church, would have no reason to believe the guy would know where they were or would prefer them to some other victim, or that he would have any ability to commit any crime against them. So, I don't see that it is specifically very intimidating.

Besides, the guy with the blog wouldn't be committing any crime I could think of. The guy sending him a wafer might be guilty of stealing a cracker (which isn't intimidating either), but that's debatable since they are meant to be given out to the congregation for free. Can you imagine the prosection for stealing a wafer?

 

Nah, I don't want to visit an anti-papist website on a company computer.

So, what if a reader gets all stirred up by his blog and burns down a church. Maybe at that point, prosecutors would have an interest in him. But, can they get any charge to stick? It'd be hard.

 

I think the churches do feel threatened, considering he stated many have stake outs to prevent him from stealing anything.

It certainly seems like a hate crime to me, considering it has the following 2 characteristics:

1) He stole something (crime)
2) He is targeting a specific group of people because of their religion (hate)

 

This is why judging thought and trying to use it to change sentences is stupid. If the idiot steals the eucharist, he is a petty thief, and should be tried as such. What he thinks about it, says about it, and does with it after the fact is inconsequential.

 

I think this somewhat qualifies as hate crime but at the least I agree the guy is being a disrespectful a-hole.

What I am more curious about is the power of the eucharist as a sacred object and when is it empowered to be sacred? Would just the wafer taken out of a church still qualify as sacred or is the whole act of communion, including the blessing by the priest make it sacred?

It seems to me that Catholics might be imbuing more power to this guy than he really deserves. So he's desecrating a cracker yet to me it seems like without the ritual and the location its not the body of Christ.

I might be projecting a Buddhist view as many Buddhist denominations don't place permanent religious values on what are considered sacred objects. For instance the sand mandalas are meant to be destroyed. I heard some Buddhist talk about the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas as being a terrible loss for history and culture but not a desecration as the statues like all things are impermanent.

 

The Catholic belief is that through Consecration during the Mass, the Eucharist becomes the body of Christ and stays the body of Christ. If removed from the church, it is still the body of Christ.

Prior to the Consecration, it is a wafer.

 

Perhaps I focus too particularly on intimidation. I don't think statutes actually require intimidation, though that does seem to be the most common form (aside from out-and-out assault).

I still have a problem with the crime itself being so petty. While it may have large spiritual implications, a communion wafer is just about the least valuable thing you can possibly steal, if it can even count as stealing (you are mostly not receiving it in the manner that the giver would prefer). And, he doesn't intend to steal himself, just asking others to.

(Btw, he's not saying the churches have stake-outs for him, but they have fashioned stakes, ostensibly to stab him with. Obviously, that's not true and he likely could easily steal a wafer himself -- or even buy some and pretend he stole them -- but he's too big of a p***y for that.)

So, maybe it is a hate crime. But, I don't know that I think the state should do anything about it. It is an npv-negative project.

As for the Catholics, Jesus told you you'd be persecuted. If someone stealing and desecrating communion wafers is the worst you get, you're doing better than 99% of Christendom. Pray for the soul of this poor blogger, who can't be living a very fulfilling life if this is how he spends his free time.

 

I don't think this would fall under a hate crime statute. As JV stated, there really isn't an intimidation factor here - it's just a petty and destructive manner of free speech. I could see it prosecuted as theft, but I think how he acquires the communion wafer would determine whether he could prosecuted.

If he has someone go into the Church and take the wafer outside of a Mass setting, then it could reasonably be considered stealing.

If someone accepts a wafer during Mass and then gives it to him, then I don't think there is any crime, regardless of what he does with it. While the Church may have a specific preference for how the wafer is used, I think they would have a hard time proving they retain ownership once the wafer was distributed during Mass.

 

I have two thoughts:

(1) If this guy has a problem with Catholics, he is more than welcome to come to my house, and we can have a "conversation" about it. I'd be more than happy to give him a debate that would take weeks to heal...I mean forget.

(2) Let's see...the IRA...the Mafia...I'm not sure I'd f*** with Catholics.

 

^Refman, you'd really use violence to right this "horrible hate crime"? That's not very peaceful. Sounds kind of barbaric actually.


Reposted from:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/its_a_goddamned_cracker.php#more

There are days when it is agony to read the news, because people are so goddamned stupid. Petty and stupid. Hateful and stupid. Just plain stupid. And nothing makes them stupider than religion.

Here's a story that will destroy your hopes for a reasonable humanity.

Webster Cook says he smuggled a Eucharist, a small bread wafer that to Catholics symbolic of the Body of Christ after a priest blesses it, out of mass, didn't eat it as he was supposed to do, but instead walked with it.



This isn't the stupid part yet. He walked off with a cracker that was put in his mouth, and people in the church fought with him to get it back. It is just a cracker!

Catholics worldwide became furious.

Would you believe this isn't hyperbole? People around the world are actually extremely angry about this — Webster Cook has been sent death threats over his cracker. Those are just kooks, you might say, but here is the considered, measured response of the local diocese:

"We don't know 100% what Mr. Cooks motivation was," said Susan Fani a spokesperson with the local Catholic diocese. "However, if anything were to qualify as a hate crime, to us this seems like this might be it."

We just expect the University to take this seriously," she added "To send a message to not just Mr. Cook but the whole community that this kind of really complete sacrilege will not be tolerated."



Wait, what? Holding a cracker hostage is now a hate crime? The murder of Matthew Shephard was a hate crime. The murder of James Byrd Jr. was a hate crime. This is a goddamned cracker. Can you possibly diminish the abuse of real human beings any further?

Well, you could have a priest compare this event to a kidnapping.

"It is hurtful," said Father Migeul Gonzalez with the Diocese. "Imagine if they kidnapped somebody and you make a plea for that individual to please return that loved one to the family."

Gonzalez said the Diocese is willing to meet with Cook and help him understand the importance of the Eucharist in hopes of him returning it. The Diocese is dispatching a nun to UCF's campus to oversee the next mass, protect the Eucharist and in hopes Cook will return it.



I like the idea of sending a scary nun to guard the ceremony at the next mass. But even better…let's send Webster Cook to hell!

Gonzalez said intentionally abusing the Eucharist is classified as a mortal sin in the Catholic church, the most severe possible. If it's not returned, the community of faith will have to ask for forgiveness.

"We have to make acts of reparation," Gonzalez said. "The whole community is going to turn to prayer. We'll ask the Lord for pardon, forgiveness, peace, not only for the whole community affected by it, but also for [Cook], we offer prayers for him as well."

Get some perspective, man. IT'S A CRACKER.

And of course, Bill Donohue is outraged (I know, Donohue is going to die of apoplexy someday when a gnat violates his oatmeal, so this isn't saying much).

For a student to disrupt Mass by taking the Body of Christ hostage--regardless of the alleged nature of his grievance--is beyond hate speech. That is why the UCF administration needs to act swiftly and decisively in seeing that justice is done. All options should be on the table, including expulsion.



Oh, beyond hate speech. Where does this fit on the Shoah scale, Bill? It shouldn't even register, but here is Wild-Eyed Bill the Offended calling for the expulsion of a student…for not swallowing a cracker.

Would you believe that the mealy-mouthed president of the university, John Hitt, is avoiding defending his student is instead playing up the importance of the Catholic church to the university? Of course you would. That's what university presidents do. Bugger the students, keep the donors and the state reps happy.

Unfortunately, Webster Cook has now returned the cracker. Why?

Webster just wants all of this to go away. Especially now that he feels his life is in danger.



That's right. Crazy Christian fanatics right here in our own country have been threatening to kill a young man over a cracker. This is insane. These people are demented ****wits. And Cook is not out of the fire yet — that Fox News story ends with an open incitement to cause him further misery.

University officials said, that as for right now, Webster Cook is not in trouble. If anyone or any group wants to file a formal complaint with the University through the student judicial system, they can. If that happens, Webster will go through a hearing either in front of an administrative panel or a panel of his peers.



Got that? If you don't like what Webster Cook did, all you have to do is complain to the university, and they will do the dirty work for you of making his college experience miserable. And don't assume the university would support Cook; the college is now having armed university police officers standing guard during mass.

I find this all utterly unbelievable. It's like Dark Age superstition and malice, all thriving with the endorsement of secular institutions here in 21st century America. It is a culture of deluded lunatics calling the shots and making human beings dance to their mythical bunkum.

 

So this is really what we have come to, eh? How terribly sad. If somebody were to race bait, or be derrogatory toward homosexuals, or be insensitive toward Muslims, then that person is worthy of contempt and scorn. But if somebody belittles a person because of their Christian beliefs (in this case Catholic), then it is tremendously funny and ok? How amazingly odd, not to mention disingenuous and stupid.

I'm not asking you (or anybody else) to believe. You are free to believe as you wish. You have to understand that this jackass in the original blog is seeking help worldwide in desacrating something that is held as holy by millions in an attempt to poke fun at those millions and you are ok with this? Nice.

I just love it when people discuss things like this as though Christians are stupid and they are so much more enlightened because they are free from these beliefs. Good for you. While I do not believe that this is a crime (hate or otherwise), I do believe that this is a form of open contempt for a group of people not unlike racism or discrimination against Muslims.

It is worthy of scorn. The fact that it is met, not with scorn, but with support from some, is telling. It is a sad commentary on the toilet that society has become. It is ok to poke fun at some groups and not others. If that's the way you believe, then it is probably for the best if you keep that your little secret.

And yes...if that individual were to come to my house and espouse how stupid he believes that I am for being a Catholic, then there is a pretty good chance that there would be punches thrown. I'm human. Catholicism is an important part of my life. Sorry you don't get that.

 

Some things are just not worth doing, even if you think it's just a small thing.

Like would you wear red in a crip neighbourhood? You can if you want to make some point about freedom (I am free to do whatever). Just don't be surprised if you find yourself in an unmarked grave some hours later.

Actions have consenquences. Even if you think religion is stupid, some people do consider it an important part of their lives and will do something if you insult thier beliefs. It's just not worth it for you, for them, for everyone. This guy is a dumbass, and no matter how you justify it behind some disregard for "superstition and religion" and a thin vaneer of internet bravado, what he did was absolutly pointless. If he had an intelectual basis, a rational reason to do it...instead of just hate baiting Catholics, well then I may be able to understand it. As it is, he deblibratly set out to incite anger. And I feel the anger now directed at him is completly justifiable.

 

Bingo.

The guy is laughing and making a joke over the faith of millions. When, not if, but when this guy gets beaten up, he'll have nobody to blame but his own dumb ass.