Some commentary on the CHA-PHI series(particularly on E.Jones)

Da Man · May 1, 2000

First, it's painfully clear that Eddie Jones is NOT close to being the best 2 guard in the league. Too many people on this board still think EJ is the best 2 guard in the league, and I just don't think there is any way you can justify that stance. Once again, Jones reinforces the notion that he is a playoff choker. The guy has never stepped up big in any playoff game in his career. The guy has played in 30 semiodd playoff games and he has disappeared in virtually everyone of them. Now that he is suppose to be the man on this Hornets team, what's he do? Disappears from more playoff games. Shoots a sparkling 22 for 58 in the series. I can't even give him credit for the Hornets good play late in the season as EJ almost shot them out of a couple of those wins. The reason they surged late and got the 4 seed was because of their interior play, most notably Derrick Coleman.

Kobe Bryant is the Best 2 guard period! You can't argue it. PERIOD!!! 22 ppg, over 6 rebounds, and 5 assists!!! Come on, it's time he gets more credit. A lot of people are still holding these stereotypes of Kobe from his first few years in the league. The guy is an absolute stud. And he is officially the best guard defender in the league! He may not get as many steal as Eddie JOnes in the course of a game, but whoever he is guarding almost always has a subpar game. He became a good defender last year. He's a DAMN GOOD defender this year.

People want to make Eddie Jones as this dominating defensive player that changes what the opposing teams do on offense. He's not that good. Hell, I used to get scared when the Rockets had to face Gary Payton or MJ. They are the type of guard defenders that really change the game defensively. I don't think Eddie Jones strikes fear in the hearts of Rockets fans or any player for that matter on the defensive end.

Let's have a little analysis from the last game in the Philly/Charlotte series. Allen Iverson pretty much had his way with Eddie Jones at the end of the game. Allen would either blow by him or use a screen that staggered Jones. The latter part is the key difference between E.Jones and KB on defense. Kobe is strong. He gets around screens like there's nothing to it. But Jones is very vunerable to screens because he's just not strong enough. That allows Kobe to be effective in guarding Iverson and makes Jones a liability against Iverson. Also, because of that strength it makes Kobe a much more versatile defender because he can guard SF's in this league very effectively. I'm sure Rockets fans will remember Scottie Pippen trying to overpower Kobe in the post. How many times did he get blocked or have his shot altered by Kobe in the post during the course of the season. He's got the strength to bang down low, where Eddie becomes almost average as a low post defender. And you've got to be impressed by how Kobe has been guarding a lot of quality PG's lately. I can't remember Eddie guarding anyone but a SG. Also, whoever pays Eddie the MAX is foolish. The guy is as good as he is going to get and it's not that great. It's not like he's going to get much better. He's already 29. And since his 2nd year in the league, he's only gotten marginally better. Buyer BEWARE!

And while I'm on Iverson, I think people need to start giving this guy a lot more credit. This is the second straight year that the Sixers have advanced to the 2nd round. The Sixers have a whole lot of role players. And most of those players were once considered just scrubs, i.e. Aaron McKie, Eric Snow, George Lynch. Talent wise, this team is arguably in the lower half out of all NBA Teams. But as a team, they are one of the best in the league. AND IVERSON IS THE REASON for that, or better yet, he's the answer. So what if Iverson doesn't shoot the highest of percentages. He shot 42.1% this year. Hell in contrast Eddie only shot 42.7% this year And Cuttino was 43%. Do you think any of those guys can carry a team with mediocre talent, carry them to the 2nd round of the playoffs 2 straight years and account for a HUGE chunk of the teams total offense? NO. And if they had to carry that burden do you think Eddie would still shoot 42.7% AND Cuttino 43%? NO. They'd probably be around 38%. And that's being generous. Let's not forget Iverson's career averages for rebounds and assists are 4.1 and 5.9. Eddie Jones career averages are 4 rpg and 3 apg. He gets OUT REBOUNDED by Iverson!!!! Iverson is listed at 6 feet, even though he's probably closer to 5'10". And he still can out rebound the 6'6" Jones. Also, for someone who is notorious for being a ball hog, he averages 5.9 APG for his career. The guy has such an amazing heart and plays harder than anyone I can think of. He plays through more injuries than more players can possibly tolerate. I've been hearing he's playing with a CHIP fracture on his right ankle. A fractured left TOE. A badly bruised shoulder. An inflamed left elbow. A fractured right thumb! YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! That's heart. He's is so fearless and I admire that about him. He throws his body around like it's a rag doll. All 6 feet(listed), 165 lbs of him. Unfortunately, I think his career is going to be a little short because of it. Which is VERY UNFORTUNATE because he's a joy to watch.

And my last note from the series, I've got to serve notice to the Sixer crowd. AMAZING for the 2nd straight year. They just go absolutely beserk and they do it nonstop even through timeouts. It makes me ashamed to associate myself with the Laptop crowd, who are painfully quiet during the playoffs unless it's the finals.

[This message has been edited by Da Man (edited May 01, 2000).]

thacabbage · May 1, 2000

I can't think of even walking with a broken toe and fractured ankle, let alone racing through the paint and challenging guys over a foot taller than me and over 100 pounds heavier. Allen Iverson. The Answer, and he's got more heart than most NBA teams. Enough of this "but he's a ballhog.." bsh!t. Name one other guy who can lead a team of role-playing players to the semi-finals, two years in a row.

And don't forget about Theo. Dude's played some amazing defense in this series.

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thacabbage: Proud President and Founder of the Theo Ratliff Fan Club.

playahata · May 2, 2000

Any anti-Iverson remarks are simply dismissed as player hating. The guy plays to win and he has incredible game. And by the way he has led his team to the 2nd round with more injuries than I can bare to name. Far too much has been made of his "thug" image.

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Big Dogzz · May 2, 2000

Kobe Bryant is not better than Allen Iverson or Vince Carter PERIOD!

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haven · May 2, 2000

With all respect to the Answer, Bryant's a better player.

He puts up fewer points, but grabs more boards and assists while playing better defense and shooting for a higher percentage. Yeah, he has shaq on his team-who probably eats up a few points off of Kobe's average.

I'd say Iverson and Carter are about equal directly behind Bryant.

Btw, I do remember players who took a bunch of roleplayers to the conference semifinals. In fact, I remember when HAKEEM won the championship with a squad of role players .

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[This message has been edited by haven (edited May 02, 2000).]

Supermac34 · May 2, 2000

I don't think Kenny "the jet" Smith would like being called a role player.

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You can't stop F&Brule, you can only hope to contain him.

Da Man · May 2, 2000

I'd classify Vince Carter as a 2 guard, but he has yet to start at 2 guard since being in the league so I wouldn't exactly count him.

Actually, if you want to argue that Iverson is better than Kobe, I can give you that. I'm just damn tired of people praising Eddie Jones as the best 2 because that argument is just so wrong. Arguing Kobe or Iverson as the best 2, go right ahead. Eddie JOnes, well you can argue that he's the best player to come out of Temple in the 90's. And that's about it.

I think Hakeem had a little bit more talent than Iverson. Otis was coming off an All-Star appearance just 2 years before the championship. Maxwell was an above average 2 guard. Kenny Smith was one of the best perimeter shooters in the league. Of course you can throw in Cassell, Horry, and Elie and you've got a very talent bunch. Horry and Smith were lottery picks. Otis was a mid 1st out of the legendary 84 class(actually he might have been a lottery pick too).

[This message has been edited by Da Man (edited May 02, 2000).]

haven · May 2, 2000

You're right, Vince is a 3... and I think he'll remain there. I'm just sick of all the hype, and was hoping to start a controversy . Kobe's better than Vince, gosh darn it!

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4chuckie · May 2, 2000

Da Man:
I agree with you on Iverson, he is a gamer. He is still learning how/when to shoot and distribute but he has crazy skills.

I also think Kobe looks like the real deal at the two. I also like Eddie Jones as well. I still think Eddie is the a good #2, although Kobe is a step above him.

Remember Kobe has one major advantage: Shaq. Keep in mind before Pip came here many people said her was the 2nd best player in the NBA, because MJ made him look so good. I think Kobe is a better player than Pip but it is tough to compare 2 players who are in different situations.

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Rocket River · May 2, 2000

Easy to take chances on Defense when SHAQ backing u up

Easy to Drive to the Hoop when big men won't leave SHAQ for a Alley oop

THE IMPORTANCE OF A DOMINANT POST PRESENTS
CANNOT BE OVERSTATED ENOUGH!
[Ask DaDakota!]

Hakeem [in his prime] and EDDIE JONES
would eat
KOBE and SHAQ up

[I'm not gonna even bring up the LAKER calls
that Kobe gets]

Plus Atittude goes a long way with me
Eddie has the right one
Kobe has the wrong one

The NBA this year sucks
cause either Kobe or Pippen will get a ring

Rocket River

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RocketsPimp · May 2, 2000

Kobe is a better all around player than Iverson and Vince(although Vince is still less experienced). He shoots well, he defends, he passes...he's good. You just can't argue that.

Shouldn't this be in a different forum since it has NOTHING to do with the Rockets??

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We're going to miss you Chuck! Thanks for all the memories!

haven · May 2, 2000

Rocket River: Look at Kobe's stats when Shaq isn't there... they're higher. Pippen was a complementary player. Kobe isn't-he can create his own shot, has a better jump shot than Pip, passes just as well, and is more athletic.

Also, as bad as Pip's season with the Rockets was, remember that period of time without Jordan? Pippen was awesome... carried the Bulls. So, Pippen's stats DID go up with out Jordan .

Remember when Clyde came to Houston? Didn't his PPG suffer? If Kobe were "the man" I think he'd average 28 points per game.

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Rocketman95 · May 2, 2000

Wow, did the ROCKETS, sign Kobe, Vince, Iverson, or Jones?

Have I been away for that long?

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Get your proper swirve on...visit www.swirve.com (coming in late May, for now visit www.eesite.com)

Houston Rocks · May 2, 2000

Kobe just plain out Sucks when he plays against Shandon Anderson. What does that tell you.

ROckS

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HOOP-T · May 2, 2000

I can argue anything....PERIOD.

Anyway, I think anyone that knows basketball can argue that Eddie Jones is one of the best SG's in the league.....I know I can. He is definitely top two in being the best ALL AROUND SG in the league. I think He and Kobe have the top two slots there. Iverson is definitely the best pure scorer at the position. Kobe only played head to head against EJ once:

Kobe - 26pts, 7 rebs., 6 assts., 0 steals, 0 blocks

EJ - 18 pts, 6 rebs., 4 assts, 3 steals, 1 block

Pretty comparable.

Against Iverson in Philly during the regular season: (these are averages)

EJ - 23.3 ppg, 4 rpg, 5.25 apg, 4 steals per**, and 1.75 blocks per game

Iverson - 24.75 ppg, 2.75 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.25 steals per game, 0 blocks per.

Playoffs look like this:
EJ - 17 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.7 apg, 3 steals per, 1 block per
Iverson - 25.7 ppg, 4 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1 steal per, .33 blocks per.

I am not sure how one could not plead a case for EJ to be a top SG, if not the top SG. Oh well, what do I know? Stats mean nothing, right?

Eddie has a different role on his team than either Kobe or Iverson. Jones is also looked to as the "defensive stopper" when needed, and that takes away from his offensive opportunities. Look at his defensive numbers - steals and blocks. He may not have as many points, but don't steals and blocks translate into a point here or there?????

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HOOP-T

Hey Shaq, Acme called, and they want their bricks back!

4chuckie · May 2, 2000

Hoop-T:
Great stats! As you mentioned Eddie isn't great because of his scoring, he is because of his all around game. He is a defensive stopper- he usually guards the opponents top offensive guard or small forward. He does get his points, but I don't consider him an offensive machine like Iverson, or Kobe.
I don't think Eddie can be a one man show, like Iverson, but he is more than a role player. If he plays on a team with other talented players he can be succesaful. Rumors are he is leaving Charlotte for either Orlando or Chicago. He reminds me more of a Grant Hill/Joe Dumars type of player, someone who can be effective w/o the ball. That is what separated him from so many other good players, most others need the ball to be effective.

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slcrocket · May 2, 2000

I don't understand this epidemic of people hating Kobe Bryant anywhere (except here in Utah: they hate anyone who is already better than their entire organization will ever be). I am so sick of hearing about his "bad" attitude. What has he done wrong? I know that in his first seasons, he shot the ball way too much and didn't play that much defense. But look at his totals this year! His assists are up, he is already considered one of the best defending guards in the NBA, and his field goal percentage is much higher. The guy is great for the game of basketball: he just wants to win. I don't remember Kobe fathering any illigitimate children (Karla), missing any practices because he just doesn't want to (Rodman), etc. He doesn't have a bad attitude, he was just cursed because he had such high expectations demanded of him as a rookie, and he is just beginning to live up to expectations. But he didn't tell everyone what to expect from him as a rookie. That is what makes the Lakers so scary: any team with Bryant is a good team, and with others (notably Shaq) this is the best team in the league. If they don't break this team up, (I hate to say this) the Lakers could become a dy... dynas... dynasty.

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Jazzkiller

Da Man · May 2, 2000

Eddie Jones averaged .68 bpg this year. Wow, that's intimidating! And he used to play with a dominating center in....SHAQ! You didn't exactly see him thrive in that situation.

"He reminds me more of a Grant Hill/Joe Dumars type of player, someone who can be effective w/o the ball."

First of all, the Dumars' reference fits in that statement. But Grant Hill....we're talking about a guy that handles the ball 80% of the time for the Pistons ever since his 2nd year in the league.

Also, Jones needs the ball to thrive. Since he was traded to the Hornets, his game has improved and it's because they are giving him more of the ball handling duties. He's at his best creating off the dribble. If he plays strictly off the ball, he'll be that same inconsistent player with the inconsistent jump shot that he was with the Lakers. Now he is just sometimes inconsitent by handling the ball more. He's still just an above average outside shooter.

You can't be just a very good role player and be considered the best 2 guard in the league. I'm not arguing whether he's one of the best or whether he's got a better all around game. I'm telling you he is not the best 2 guard, which is indisputable. He's a wonderful complimentary player. And yes, I would love to have Shandon Anderson playing like a poor man's Eddie Jones. But we aren't talking about role players it would be nice to have. People make Eddie JOnes out to be this great, franchise-like player which he is not. Like I said, whoever pays him the max is going to be paying for hyperinflated prices.

Oh yeah, Eddie JOnes has a wonderful attitude. Here is what he has been saying lately...

''We'll have to see what happens over the summer,'' Jones said. ''Do they go out and get help in positions we really need help in? Do they go out and sign free agents? What do they do in the draft? That'll tell me if they're going in the right direction. We need to improve the team. Remember, right now, if we started next season tomorrow, we have the same starting lineup that couldn't get out of the first round of the playoffs.''

''I'm going to be very selfish with my decision. The only thing I can say is that the decision will be made by me, and it will be what's best for me and my family, and there won't be any other factors.''

What does he do when he gets to Miami and Chicago? He just starts babbling about how it would be nice to play here. That doesn't do a whole lot in keeping team chemistry strong. He basically calls out his teammates for not being good enough to get out of the 1st round. The reason they couldn't get out of the first round was SOLELY based on HIM. They had good interior play during the series. It was the perimeter play that let them down. Eddie Jones let them down.

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BobFinn* · May 2, 2000

I would take Danny Ainge in his prime over any of them

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I had amnesia once or twice.

DaFranchise · May 2, 2000

Eddie Jones is at his best as a 2nd option, which is why I think the Rockets should go after him if Mobley leaves. A tandem of Anderson-Jones could shut down Kobe-Rice, Vince-TMac, or Smith-Pippen. Also, Francis' drives and the simple threat of his scoring would take a lot of pressure off of Jones, and I think he could average 20 a game even if Francis averages 25. I don't like the odds of getting him, and we would have to use our 4.5 Million exception. But the Hornets would love to get Kenny Thomas and Walt Williams in return(I hate to get rid of the Wiz, but the Hornets would need a 3 more than Cato a center.) At least if he doesn't come here but still leaves Charlotte, that means that one more free agent is available to us.

As far as the best two in the league, Kobe hasn't convinced me that he is the best especially since he isn't even his team's go-to-guy, and while Iverson can score from anywhere on anyone, his lack of size defensively will always be a problem. Carter is a 3 so he doesn't count. Michael Finley is on a crappy team, so he is eliminated. Stackhouse has had one good year, but not the quality of some of the above guys. Reggie Miller hasn't shown the same all-around game he showed back in the mid-90's. That leaves Allan Houston, who is my pick for the league's best 2. Maybe without Spree to feed off of, I wouldn't say that, but Houston does everything the Knicks need from their franchise player.

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Some commentary on the CHA-PHI series(particularly on E.Jones)

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