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Solving Illegal Immigration

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by thumbs, Jun 15, 2018.

  1. ROCKSS

    ROCKSS Contributing Member

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    I cant separate the MAGA crowd if they are on the trump train, there one and the same, you sleep with the dogs you now have fleas. I actually thought he would be a decent candidate but he`s really shown to be from the same cloth as trump, he is a much flashier version, maybe he wont lie as much but who really knows, the stunts he`s done with Disney, the don't say gay bill and the handling of migrants in another state point me to the trump crowd which at the end of the day is the maga crowd. As another poster said, NO gop candidate will speak the truth nor go full bore at trump because trump owns the base..........you will not get anywhere without his support, the gop is stuck with him and we`ve seen what happens when you cross him. I`ve voted republican several times over the past 20 years because there ideas appealed to me so I dont have blinders on, I just draw the line at pure adulterated shenanigans ;)
     
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  2. ROXRAN

    ROXRAN Contributing Member

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    lol..
    I think you know exactly what I inferred with the reference based on your subsequent statements but you are being coy, that’s ok. It’s the liar Er…lawyer in you. That’s what lawyers do after all so I accept your faults. Actually you make some valid points in a non truncated manner …you pretty much nailed exactly what the impressive aspect is about DeSantis on your last paragraph…I think that actually hit the mark…but as far as “maga”,..I feel what you may be referring to beyond a simple campaign slogan is the extreme small portion of the Republican base that live and breathe Trump…

    I think you would be surprised that once Trump is out of the picture.. so to goes his slogan and millions upon millions of Republican voters like me will absolutely move on. We want better effective leadership with actual cognitive ability…Trump isn’t it…Biden absolutely isn’t it either..many that lean right on political slant such as @AroundTheWorld agrees on this very board..
    The funny thing is the vast majority of actual voters on the right honestly doesn’t care about Trump as a choice if it meant someone better and we agree with a lot of faults that he has including lack of political savvy, overtly selfish motives, lack of interpersonal clout etc…etc..generally he sucks …I really hope DeSantis runs,…I feel this country needs his guidance, leadership traits and command presence. I’m not alone in that thought process
     
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  3. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    You wouldn't know what a responsible non divisive leader looked like if it slapped you across the face. You'll reject people like Romney or Cheney, people who probably are more closely aligned to conservative values than DeSantis or Trump.

    A politician who uses the term "woke" 5 times in sentence isn't the "president we need" right now. The last thing we need is a president who dumps accelerant on a dumpster fire that is our culture wars. DeSantis is a culture wars escalator not a deescalator. @rocketsjudoka is right. A lot of his traits are very Nixonian. DeSantis is the smart version of Trump that means he will still pander to the lowest common denominator base of the GOP in a more media friendly way. That is the main difference between him and Trump.
     
  4. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    smollett lied about being attacked right? I don’t see a connection between him and Trump followers, unless his accusation was directed at Trumpers. I’m more than capable of being coy and I’ll let you know if I’m doing it.

    Regarding DeSantis, see the thing is, you didn’t make the points I did. I actually went and gathered information, formed my own thoughts and opinion, and am intellectually honest enough to give credit to DeSantis even though I don’t support him or his positions/candidacy. That’s what good lawyers do. Perhaps you need to engage with better ones (or not rely on trite generalizations about lawyers which makes you pretty damn basic).

    In any event, to my main point, perhaps wasn’t clear on what I meant by MAGA. I don’t mean just trumps campaign slogan.

    I mean people who falsely claim the election was stolen. People who view J6 as a nothing burger, who lie that it was antifa, who view it as tourism, who view the J6 criminals as victims. People who support or tolerate white nationalism or Christian nationalism. People who believe in crap like Q anon, or snuggle up to it or tolerate it. People who are anti science, anti education. Those people represent a meaningful part of the Republican voter base, these MAGA deplorables.

    Sorry, they aren’t some “extreme small” part of the Republican Party. I get that you’d rather they be viewed as an insignificant fringe, but they aren’t. They are quite mainstream and control the party. They’re not going to magically heal themselves and become not deplorable anytime soon.

    Let’s say Trump doesn’t seek the nomination in 2024. Or he runs and loses to DeSantis. Is there any scenario where he shuts up or does not control his base? Of course not. Trump will continue to stump, raise money, and grift and control the Republican Party.

    What is DeSantis going to do? He won’t cross Trump. No, he will I cater to trump and his base, amplify their ignorance, and represent them proudly. He needs them to show up and vote.

    Honestly, I would welcome @AroundTheWorld ’s thoughts on this as well. Is there any realistic scenario where Trump and his base are not indispensable figures/factors to DeSantis? Is there any scenario that Trump isn’t dominating the Republican Party or at a minimum must be appeased…until Trump is dead?
     
  5. ROXRAN

    ROXRAN Contributing Member

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    First off Thank you for making the point,... This is common knowledge. Congratulations! however I’m not sure that it was actually significant or makes you anymore a good lawyer than the FBI lawyer which altered an email. I’m just glad you know something I knew beforehand …maybe I have hung around bad lawyers lol..I guess that puts me in your basic retainer category but I’d rather be basic than get probation as well but that’s besides the point

    The point is whether you as a self described supposed “good lawyer” with non basic discernment can surmise actual events that has not taken place or predict future scenarios involving what someone is going to do…
    Unless you have a predictive analytics report, you have no idea. You are making assertions about the future based on your own feelings about something you don’t understand..you sound almost hysterical to be fair.

    the people you describe as anti science, anti education..q anon believing …white nationalist, etc l don’t get where you think these nut cases control anything anymore than Antifa or BLM or jussie smollet types that see imaginary maga people in Chicago …as a lawyer you know when lies intertwine with feelings…we can’t trust your feelings but what I trust is the majority of people who are good people and not basic maga deplorables in your twisted mind warped with vilification. DeSantis is DeSantis…at this point he doesn’t need trump.

    if you can’t see it then that’s on you

    Once trump is out of the picture and frankly I hope that happens then what holds DeSantis from being who he is? He hasn’t made an announcement but I sure..Hope.. he does
     
  6. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    you conveniently leave out the people who lie about the election being stolen and J6 criminals being patriots or tourists. That’s not a small group at all is it? Are you included in that group?

    Those are people who control and dominate your Republican Party. It is mainstream republicans politics. Or do you dispute that basic fact?
     
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  7. ROXRAN

    ROXRAN Contributing Member

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    I did say etc….yes there are nutcases on both sides …Antifa, BLM, these people destroy things and cause mayhem when they feel confused or aggrieved. Wasn’t there a confrontation at the White House during Trump legitimate presidential term with secret service getting injured? Convenient how that’s forgotten..

    j6 criminals was simply the coin flip . Worst time and place

    Just as Democrats are not controlled by BLM and Antifa, Republicans like myself ..which I consider to be among the vast majority and typical is..NOT controlled by nutcases .

    you think otherwise and I will end the discussion there. We aren’t going to get anywhere and I have better things to do anyway
     
  8. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

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    Trump is not going to live forever...he might be in jail...DeSantis could change his tone all of a sudden, at the right time, if Trump actually gets convicted or if new negative facts on Trump come out (I know, it's pretty crazy, the guy has been like Teflon so far)...we have seen it happen again and again in politics that someone is just waiting for the right moment to unseat the incumbent.
     
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  9. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    The “on both sides” routine is cute. Tired and dull, but quite Trumpy of you.

    You personally might not be controlled by MAGA. Hell, I’ll concede you are not. But your party … I see that’s where you hit the eject button. Like I said at the start of this discussion, you don’t like it, but you get to live with the fact that MAGA controls the Republican Party and will for the foreseeable future, even if Desantis is the 2024 nominee.

    I’ll go talk to Aroundtheworld. At least he is willing to acknowledge the political realities of the Republican Party and Desantis.
     
  10. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    Yeah, I figure DeSantis is probably first in line hoping that Trump is convicted or dies. Honestly, I think it’s going to have to be the latter.

    The Republican base is so devoted to Trump that he might be able to run the party from a jail cell. They followed him this far and it’s hard to think of a line in the sand they would draw. Wouldn’t any conviction be dismissed as illegitimate? If there was evidence of Epstein pedophelia, isn’t the answer some Bill Clinton whataboutism?

    I’m struggling to think of a situation where a challenger unseats an incumbent with such a strong grip on his followers. Did you have something in mind? I would love nothing more than for this to happen.
     
  11. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

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    Not from the US, but when Angela Merkel suddenly distanced herself from Helmut Kohl (previous chancellor, who brought Germany the reunification), who had been promoting her through her entire career. Suddenly, she backstabbed him when the moment was right.

    https://www.dw.com/en/helmut-kohls-son-gives-merkel-partial-blame-for-mothers-suicide/a-37680756
     
  12. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Nobody and particularly the Repubs want to actually deal with undocumented immigration. They want it as a political issue as some of their other social issues like gay rights and mar1juana craziness are losing their power. It is just another dog whisper form of racism as they are getting somewhat ashamed of straight racism. Hey look at Fox they have lots of black and brown faces pushing economics for the wealthy.

    No support for temporary work visas; nor for actually doing things like paying the starving drought stricken peasants of Guatemala to stay on their no longer productive lands and plant trees which will eventually capture more rainfall and return to subsistence farming --as the Mexican President keeps begging the US to do.

    We now have hundreds of thousands of Venezuelan immigrants caused largely by our economic blockade.
     
  13. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    interesting turn of events. I don’t know whether Kohl had the power that Trump does, but interesting.

    Even assuming something takes Trump out of the picture in 2024, I find it hard to imagine that DeSantis would have any pointed words against Trump, his base, election denial, J6, etc. He would say that they need to look to the future, not the past, and then nod and wink at the trump base enough with grievance and identity politics to keep them motivated to turn out. Basically, DeSantis would be Trumpy enough, but cut out the worst 10 percent and hope it’s enough to pull back centrists or right leaning moderates.
     
  14. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

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    I think that's a realistic assessment. But once he would be President, he wouldn't be a racist who tells people to drink bleach and who cages children at the border, among other things. I trust that he actually has values, in contrast to Trump.
     
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  15. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    The economic reality seems to be that we need illegal immigrants labor. If that’s the case, you are exactly right and nobody really wants to solve the problem…just use it as a political tool.
     
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  16. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    The Trumpy or trump light behavior thus far suggests otherwise. I’m curious, what is the basis for your trust that DeSantis actually has values. For example, the whole business of flying asylum seekers to Martha’s Vinyard hardly screams good solid decent guy,
     
  17. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

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    Again, none of these 50 people will be worse off for having visited Martha's Vineyard. Is it clearly a political stunt? Yes. Has anyone been harmed by it? No. (And yes, bobrek will once again complain about the use of FL taxpayer money for this...to me, it's like buying an ad to draw attention to an issue.)

    Show me a politician who doesn't pander to his base to some extent to win elections.

    https://floridapolitics.com/archive...een-ron-desantis-and-his-mentor-donald-trump/
     
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  18. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    well, ignore that then. I am curious what is the basis of your belief/thought that DeSantis has good values.
     
  19. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

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    I agree with him on strengthening parental rights, opposing critical race theory, wokeism, supporting law enforcement, and of course on the economy. He appears to be a solid family man without scandals like Trump had them. Pro freedom. Against lockdowns and over-reaching restrictions of civil rights under the guise of Covid. His career seems impressive to me.

    I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary.

    And while he hasn't publicly opposed Trump, I haven't seen him defend the Jan. 6 folks like others have. He seems very careful with regard to not openly opposing Trump, but I haven't seen him bend the knee to Trump like gutless Ted Cruz and others either.
     
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  20. thegary

    thegary Contributing Member
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    If anyone here needs politicians to raise there kids, well, you're doing it wrong.
     

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