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So the Astros 2017 title is tainted

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by rockets13champs, Nov 12, 2019.

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  1. Redfish81

    Redfish81 Member

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    Most likely Espada would fill in assuming he isn't suspended as well.
     
  2. BigM

    BigM Contributing Member

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    I believe Fiers is telling the truth and the videos probably corroborate the story. I’m sure the Astros cheated. I don’t like it but I’m ok with it in the sense that I’m also positive that it’s league wide in one way or another. Not everyone is going to feel that way and that’s ok too.

    My problem is that this was also clearly not done every single at bat for every single home game and it was also obviously not done on the road. The perception that’s being painted as the Astros owe their success to cheating is just flat out stupid.
     
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  3. SS0101

    SS0101 Member

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    The "evidence" is a handful of videos out of thousands of possible instances. The "evidence" is a
    Sure. I also believe they cheated. I just dont think there is sufficient evidence, especially to say it was for sure using video. Using 12 instances in thousands of possible situations is way too shaky.
     
  4. DieHard Rocket

    DieHard Rocket Contributing Member

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    I think that we are going to be the sacrificial lamb for sign-stealing and receive the harshest punishment. Also would expect the Cora/Boston to receive something too.

    But I also buy, at least so far, that this is only a small sample of incidents compared to a full 162 game season -- if this had gone on for the majority of ABs for a full season someone would have noticed and called it out, or the media/broadcast would have picked up on it. It doesn't excuse it but the outrage as if we cheated our way to a WS title is a bit much.
     
  5. Handles

    Handles Member

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    It's disappointing - seems like we stole signs on at least some at bats. I'm not sure how it was done exactly and I don't think we'll ever know unless someone in the org outright confesses. Just disappointing to see as a fan.

    That said...

    Taking back the WS? That's crap. We were clearly a talented team and that title is earned. I don't think this was happening every at bat as there have only been a handful of instances found out of thousands of at bats.

    Other fans hating us - what's new? Everyone acts like their **** doesn't stink. In reality, we know Red Sox, Yankees, etc. have cheated VERY recently. And this sign stealing crap goes deeper than just Astros. No way we're the only team. Doesn't make cheating right by any means, but people on social media have justice boners, tunnel vision, and short memories. This will pass. And if it doesn't, so what?

    I suggest we ignore social media altogether. Being hated is not the worst thing. Getting defensive is. Just let things fall as they will and continue winning on the field. Give them more reason to hate us by beating the Yankees again.
     
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  6. Elienator

    Elienator Member

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    Statistically speaking, if you look at 20 random videos and all 20 show the cheating that is very significant and indicates the real percentage is close to 100%. If it only occurred 20 times, the odds of picking the only 20 videos it happened in your random sample is insanely high (1 out of 1 followed by 34 zeros).

    It is very different than looking at 1,000 videos and only finding 20 instances.
     
  7. BigM

    BigM Contributing Member

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    I think that’s the point, it wasn’t every batter on every pitch. It was sporadic use which is why you have a low sample size of “evidence.”
     
  8. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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  9. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    I don't know, I wouldn't underestimate the internet sleuth, these people will dedicate their entire day to doing just that. I wouldn't even doubt that some of these videos are edited. An Astro fan on reddit even submitted one of these videos, 3 run homer by Altuve in the world series, jokingly and watched everyone jumped on it and thought it was evidence of cheating because of 'whistling'.

    Jomboy's video wasn't randomly found. He just searched for that specific pitcher games against the Astros that year and found something.

    The banging is pretty obvious though.

    I think the Astros will probably admit to the banging, their method, who knows, I don't think the exact method will come out as to not give any other teams ideas to improve upon the method. But if they have done it on the road or past 2017, that has not been proven at all. I think that's where the heavy punishment would come from.

    Because if the Astros admit to the drum, it means they did it for a few regular season games at home, that's it. If they had some other more complicated method for road games? It means that yes, playoff games they cheated too, MLB will come down with the hammer then because if they are doing it on road games, it's very hard to tell, and one can assume that maybe they did it in 2018-19 too?

    So yeah, my bet is they will be punished for the trash can banging, that's easy to see and understand.

    The rest of the 'evidence', the whistling, just fans with active imaginations. The whole Dugout guy with an earpiece sounds so fantastical, there needs to be more than one players he said she said, that's a very big accusation.

    I think for the Astros, like the Red Sox that year, will fall on their sword for the drum as that's too hard to deny now.
     
    #329 JayGoogle, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
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  10. SS0101

    SS0101 Member

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    So you are telling me that they looked at 12 random videos and found the "cheating" every time? How would you know that? Dont you think it is far more likely that they went in and had to filter through tons of them to get what they wanted? All I am saying is that they have most likely been sifting through videos/games/broadcasts for the last 3 days. There is a reason there are ONLY a few videos. So the sample size, is indeed, larger than what you are implying with your "statistically speaking" description.
     
  11. sew

    sew Member

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    TBF, there is a lot more than 12, but I get your point.

     
  12. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    Looking forward to his thoughts on why he got rocked in Game 7 in Dodger Stadium.
     
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  13. sew

    sew Member

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    He actually still takes responsibility. His take is pretty reasonable, TBH.

     
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  14. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Yep, that altuve one was submitted by an astro fan.

    There's a lot of reaching for these other ones.

    Springer looks away for 0.01 seconds and can see clearly a sign from someone in the outfield...people realize how far away that is to the batter?
     
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  15. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Looking at this one, that entire inning, Springer does it once.

    Reddick stares down the pitcher...or does he? No close up on the eyes so you cannot tell.

    Altuve looks in the complete opposite direction, strikes out anyway in 4 pitches lol

    So either guys have different signals to look for or they could be looking that way for an entirely different reason. Altuve looks that way well before the signal is given too.

    I think it's going to be very hard to tell with regards to the whistling or the eye shifting.

    I will add this, if you are suspicious of someone, any little thing will seem suspicious. We've seen this plenty of times in real life with people calling the cops on someone for this or that reason.

    Altuve looks that way a lot for some reason, I never noticed it until now. Looking through the bats, no one else does this and before this whole thing, no one ever seemed to notice it...so...I'm not sure what to make of it...other than Altuve looks that way a lot. No one else does and if they did, they would have added it to the post as it would be the smoking gun. Only altuve looks this way.
     
    #335 JayGoogle, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  16. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    (he continues on...)
    A couple of interesting things: one, they started the sign-stealing almost immediately in each game, usually by the fourth or fifth pitch or so. Also, they were very accurate, like maybe suspiciously so--they never seemed to make a mistake.

    And I also heard/saw in the audio some trash can banging in multiple playoff games. But they certainly weren't using the exact same system as in the regular season, because there wasn't a one-to-one correspondence between banging and breaking balls.

    In retrospect, it's kind of stunning they went with such a clear and obvious audio signal. Given how devious the overall system was and how they knew there'd be more attention on the playoffs, I'd be very surprised if they didn't switch to something more sophisticated.

    the banging was SO loud it increased the average noise level significantly before each non-fastball when the Astros were batting.

    [​IMG]

    If MLB really wanted to thoroughly investigate the cheating (I suspect they don't), I would suggest going to the raw audio data and coming up with a way to systematically detect trash can bangs or other suspicious noises correlated with the next pitch.
     
  17. phasors28

    phasors28 Member

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    At the end of the day MLB needs to take ownership of their product:

    1. MLB juiced the balls this past season. This impacted pitchers significantly if they were fringe and would be sent down

    2. Umps do not consistently call strikes /ball correctly. This impacts games

    3. Pitchers like Fiers use foreign substances when they pitch.

    4. Stealing signs have been around forever and its methods are advancing. Apple watches and cameras have replaced the runner on 2nd.

    If the Astros are proven to have cheated, punish them as well as all other teams.

    At the end of the day, cheating is not going to stop. MLB needs to enact a creative solution that makes it impossible to steal signs. Handing out punishment simply won't work because of the cheating/invariable culture of the game
     
  18. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Unfortunately...this contradicts reports that the Astros moved to a whistling/dugout system when it was too loud...they can't have it both ways.
     
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  19. AznH-TownFan

    AznH-TownFan Member

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    I’ll believe the audio data if it come from MLB investigation. Otherwise, I think it’s stupid to believe what these random guys posting stuff on social media to get more followers or attention. That just my opinion.
     
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  20. Elienator

    Elienator Member

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    I’m not saying anything about how they found the videos. I’m just saying that only 12 being posted does not mean it only happened 12 times. Given the number of videos I’ve seen and how quickly they’ve shown up, it’s pretty clear this was not 12 isolated incidents out of thousands.
     
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