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So the Astros 2017 title is tainted

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by rockets13champs, Nov 12, 2019.

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  1. Htown Stros

    Htown Stros Member

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    Someone should ask him about how he cheated his way to those no hitters with that pine tar in his glove. Man I CANNOT wait for the season to start and I'm praying Fiers has to pitch against the Astros in MMP.
     
  2. tx2005

    tx2005 Member

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    This is why every Astros fan should be hoping and praying that the league drops the hammer on the Red Sox with a similar punishment regarding the 2018 season (with their 2018 title also being discussed as “tainted”).

    Houston’s sports media and it’s hacks like Chandler Rome, may be too busy impressing their buddies in NY/LA that they hope to work for one day by jumping on board the Astros hate bandwagon, but you better believe the same won’t happen in Boston. Their media is going to go scorched earth if their moral enemies, the Yankees, get off scot free. They will take it upon themselves to investigate what the league and national media refuse to. Their fans won’t allow anything less.

    That is exactly why I believe Manfred is going to ensure the Red Sox get a soft punishment because he knows the top will be blown off this scandal if the Red Sox media gets involved. At that point he loses the story that this was an isolated issue committed by one evil franchise.
     
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  3. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    Universally respected Hank Aaron: "I think whoever did that should be out of baseball the rest of their lives." Comfort level with a comment like that from a man so respected in the game?

    I understand. I've come to understand when you discipline, people are gonna have views that may not be consistent with what you've done. I accept that. I accept the criticism as part of the job. I tried to get the facts. I laid them out in as transparent way as I could so people could make their own judgement whether the discipline was strong, weak, whatever. I made decisions based on the evidence that I think were fair. People will have to decide whether I did a good job or a bad job.

    Your reaction to the reaction of the people, which is "Wow, we didn't get the players."

    I understand. I understand people's desire to have the players pay a price for what went on here. If you watch the players, watch their faces when they have to deal with this publicly, they have paid a price. To think they're skipping down the road to Spring Training happy, that's a mischaracterization of where we are. The desire to have discipline imposed on them, I understand. In a perfect world, it would have happened. We ended up where we ended up in pursuit of the most important goal: getting the facts & getting them out there.

    In the future it might be different?

    It could be different, yes.

    What role does the Players' Association play?

    People forget about it but there is a federal law that requires us to deal with the MLBPA on things like wages, hours, terms & conditions of employment, including discipline. They have an obligation to represent their members. We're gonna fulfill that obligation. We're gonna pursue a goal that puts the industry in a better position to deal with these issues on a go forward basis.

    As you watched the Astros Spring Training press conference, your reaction as you watched in real time?

    One of the most important things that has to happen in order to put this episode, people will never forget about it but to move on from it is for the entire organization starting from the top - owner all the way through the players - to accept responsibility and to apologize not only to their fans but to the fans across the other 29 teams. It's hard to deny the fact that that's gonna be an ongoing process here. It didn't get done the other day.

    Most people would describe it as an "epic failure". How would you describe it?

    It was not successful.

    What follows to that? Are you involved with the follow-up to the way it was handled?

    Whatever a team does, for better or for worse, I feel it's part of the responsibility of my position. We'll continue to work with the Astros to help them put this behind them. In the time that has gone by, some players have been out individually. I think they did a much better job in terms of taking responsibility & expressing remorse. That process will continue.

    I've heard terms like arrogant, oblivious, not contrite. To what extent do you think the message you sent was the message that was received?

    I'm not sure what you're asking.

    You send the message that this is wrong, you cheated and the perception of many out there is that several of the Astros, especially at the higher levels don't necessarily seem to be expressing that.

    I'd say this to you: their intentions may be different than the way it came off. I understand the reaction to the press conference and I think that the organization, the Astros, the individual players almost immediately realized the need to do more and that's why you've seen players out there talking about this individually.

    What type of consideration have you given to stripping the World Series title?

    Well in the context of my original decision, it was something that we talked about & analyzed extensively.

    How did you land on the decision you landed on?

    I landed on it really several thoughts. Number one, it has never happened in baseball. I am a believer in the idea that precedent matters and that when you deviate from it, you have to have a really good reason to do that. Number two, I thought the report gave people a really transparent account of what went on. That we put people in position to make their own judgement about the behavior that went on. That has certainly happened over the last month. The idea of an asterisk or asking for a piece of metal back seems a futile act. People are always know there was something about the 2017 World Series that was different and they'll know that because whether we made every decision right or wrong, we undertook a really thorough investigation and had the intestinal fortitude to put out there the facts we found even though they weren't pretty.

    How much do you struggle with that decision? Not strip that away?

    I don't because once you start down that road, where you stop is a really difficult thing to figure out. Do you go back, every individual game, every series where someone broke the rules by using steroids. Do I have to go back & clean that up? It's an impossible position to be in as an institution.

    Do you understand people who suggest that?

    I do. A lot of people who suggest that, it's people whose fandom is so strong. I'm a Dodger fan through & through and I feel like I didn't get a fair shake and they shouldn't have the benefit. I understand that, I do.
     
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  4. Htown Stros

    Htown Stros Member

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    He can't "target the networks" or the media members...that looks bad and the media isn't worried about whether or not it is good for the sport. The media is worried about revenue and getting people to watch their network or click on their articles so of course they are going to keep asking and reporting on this because let's be honest no one outside of extreme fans like us are clicking on baseball articles or watching anything MLB related in January/February.

    If he truly wants this to end, he needs to target current players like Bellinger and tell them if they don't STFU they will receive a large fine. It's hard for the Astros to just apologize, smile and move on when you have dickwads like Bellinger and other players continuing to say outrageous things like Altuve stealing the MVP from Judge in 2017 when Altuve hit .400 ON THE ROAD (pretty sure he came close to the all time record for batting average on the road during a season).
     
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  5. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    Cody Bellinger: "Jim Crane's punishment weak. Manfred's punishment weak. They were cheating for three years. Altuve stole a MVP from Judge. They stole a ring from us." How much truth in what he says?

    I don't agree that the discipline was weak. I really don't. I think the disciplines are strong enough they'll deter people from engaging in this behavior going forward. You need to think about the overall context in terms of what's been done to people's reputations, what they'll have to answer questions about arguably for the rest of their lives. I understand Cody's passion for the game but I don't agree with those comments.

    We heard Jim Crane, whether he misspoke or not "I don't think cheating had any impact on the result." Your reaction?

    I didn't play. All I know throughout the investigation - this one and the Boston one - every single player we talked about with this is if you knew what was coming, it was an advantage.

    Mike Rizzo: "Technology is here. Replay is here. There are ways to curtail it. I think MLB will take further steps." What are those steps?

    No question we will have a new policy before the 2020 season begins. The core of that policy will be to restrict access to video during the game. I think about other sports. I don't deny video can help you perform if you have access during the game but a golfer can't come off on the sixth hole and see what he's doing with his swing. We're gonna have to learn to live with less access to live video in & around the dugout and clubhouse.

    You bring up other sports. In the last week here, you had the soccer federation ban a team from Champions League two years & fined $30M. Does a statement like that at all resonate with you with this case or future cases?

    When you have misconduct by a club, by an organization, by a player, you have to consider every single form of discipline available to you out there. My responsibility is to pick discipline that is consistent with the facts you find. I understand there are scenarios you take more drastic actions. At the time, given the facts we had, I picked what I thought was the best discipline.

    There are comparisons to other scandals in baseball. Where do you rank this relative to steroids or 1919 Black Sox? Where does this fit in?

    We talked a lot about figuring an order there because it helps you think through what should happen in terms of discipline. The worst scandal has to be a scandal that involved people not trying to win. That's the worst possible thing that can happen. This comes in behind that, right behind it. It's so serious because it's tangible. It's not like breaking a financial rule that applies to how many players you can sign in the Dominican Republic. This is what happens on the field & I put it so high in how serious it is because our fans can touch it. They feel it. I think it explains the reaction.

    Yet the players don't get punished.

    If I've not been clear, I understand. I understand that desire. In a perfect world, they would have been disciplined. We gave them immunity in pursuit of what we thought was most important: clearing the air. Can you imagine if we did an investigation, gave no immunity, preserved our ability to discipline everyone and couldn't find enough facts to defend the discipline? We couldn't do that.

    It does raise the question if you didn't have Mike Fiers & didn't have immunity, would we be in the same position going into this year as '17 & '18.

    Mike Fiers, in my view, did the industry a service. He opened the door here. Without that opening of the door, we would not have conducted the effective investigation we did, we would not have been able to impose the discipline we did, we would not have been able to take the measures we'll take with respect to 2020. It's important, painful but important that we clean all that up.

    So conceivably, the answer is yes. We could have been in the same spot without someone like that.

    Right.

    This one is close to me & probably close to you given your affinity for youth sports. You have little leaguers in California & I'm sure around the country who will not use the name Astros. What impact does that message send to you?

    For me personally, one of the most troubling pieces of all this was the message that we sent to young people about the game. I do believe that our game is special in that it teaches values to young people that serve them well, whether they become baseball players or not. When you hold that belief & see what happened here, you have to accept the fact this was a step backward for us, one we'll have to work really, really hard to correct.
     
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  6. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    How would you describe the investigation of the buzzer? How deep did that go?

    The buzzer allegations, the file, the tape & everything, we were fully aware of that when we were working our way through the investigation. In a way, the piece that no one appreciates is we found no evidence, not a single witness who could corroborate that there were buzzers being used during the 2019 season or were doing anything inappropriate during the 2019 season. Given that the players told us chapter & verse about 2017 and chapter & verse about 2018, it does give some credibility to the denials about use of buzzers in 2019. Can I tell you 100% certain that it didn't happen? No. You can never know that. People tell you what they tell you. I will tell you the evidence on this issue was as consistent in the direction that nothing was going on as the evidence was consistent in the direction that there was inappropriate behavior in '17 and '18.

    The non-denial denial or the Altuve "Let's just look at the MLB investigation" vs. coming out and saying "I never used a buzzer."

    I thought that answer could have been better given what we were told during the investigation.

    Anything in hindsight now a month later you would have done different?

    Hindsight is a dangerous undertaking. I do think over time people will come to understand the significance of the discipline that was imposed here. Do I wish that I could have figured out a way to do this that would have sparked less controversy? Yeah, I do. I don't know what that is sitting here right now. I was hopeful the transparency & decision would help us move on. It's taken longer than I expected.

    It has become a referendum on your leadership.

    I understand that.

    And the reaction for the most part negative. When you sit in the commissioner office & see where the sport is, how do you feel today?

    Leadership is a really important component about what goes on on the job. It's my responsibility to show a steady hand. To show the clubs, our fans we're serious about this issue, that we have the capacity to develop rules & policies that will move the industry forward. Referendums & public polls, they are what they are. I'm aware of them but it doesn't motivate me to do my job differently. I'm doing the very best I can with a very difficult set of circumstances and I have every confidence I can move this game forward.

    Rules: the batter minimum, etc., your DL, your 20 seconds to challenge, why only those rules?

    We considered a wide variety of rules. We've talked to the MLBPA. I think that why only those rules, we're mid-term in the CBA. We have to bargain next year. When you understand that obligation, it's difficult to make significant changes in the game against that backdrop.

    Trevor Bauer described you on your playoff proposal: "Too absurd for too many reasons to type on twitter. You have absolutely no clue about baseball. You're a joke." Your reaction?

    I'm pretty good at accepting people's view & criticisms. I don't have to agree with them. About that particular comment, no matter how much, how completely I disagree with what a player thought about something, there's no way I'd speak about a major league player like that.

    To the extent of cheating be prevalent in the game, meaning it's the worst kept secret in baseball. Would you describe that close to fact or far from fact?

    That's an overstatement. I really do. I think even in terms of some people's reaction, detailed knowledge of the facts of what went on here is less widespread among people than you might think. Some views expressed are exaggerated because they don't really understand what happened.

    Is there a better way for us to understand?

    That's an individual responsibility. The key from our perspective is transparency. Find the facts, put them out there, hope people take the time to understand.
     
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  7. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    Where is the Red Sox investigation?

    We're in the final stages. Not as fast as I hoped when we began. Speed is secondary to making sure you get it right. We're doing the same with the Red Sox we did with the Astros. Complete, thorough lead investigation.

    I've spoken with people who were involved with the organization who have suggested that some things they were told prior to the 2018 ALCS changed behavior so that what you would find and there are reports out there you'll find the Red Sox did far less than the Astros, that maybe the deterrent actually worked. Where do those reports come from & can you comment on how accurate they may be?

    I won't comment on any aspect of the Red Sox investigation to the extent that we did things that slowed people down from misconduct, I'm glad about that.

    Pete Rose compared the lack of punishment to players to his own situation & sent a 20-page application to MLB.

    I'm not gonna comment on the merits of that application because I'm gonna have to rule on that one as well.

    So you are considering it?

    I have to. I have an obligation. Throughout this, I have been resolute in one concept. Whatever else someone else was doing or not doing is not relevant to judging your conduct. You're responsible for your conduct. If everyone else was doing it, I don't see it as a mitigating factor. I never will. It's part of my makeup. You have to take responsibility for your action.

    You've made a huge commitment to growing the game. Part of the minor league plan is to eliminate teams in different cities. How does that help grow the game?

    Let's start with the facts. The plan we put in front of minor league baseball preserved baseball in every single city we have it today. The minor leagues in effort to generate public support have mischaracterized that proposal publicly in way that has not been helpful in terms of making a deal. What this negotiation is about is making sure when we send young men to play professional baseball somewhere, they play baseball in a facility acceptable in terms of our developmental goals and we have a number of facilities out there where minor league owners have done the wrong thing in terms of investing in their facilities and put players in conditions not only are detrimental to developmental goals but just plain are not safe & healthy.

    Dusty Baker brought out the concept of MLB protecting against retaliation. What, if anything, can you do?

    I can give you two answers. We have been working on for some time a memorandum about being hit by pitches, intentionally throwing at batters. It's really dangerous, really a dangerous undertaking & completely independent of the Astros investigation. We will be issuing at the beginning of this week a memorandum about HBP, which will increase disciplinary ramifications of that type of behavior. That will be a tool helpful to us in terms of dealing with whatever flows from the Houston situation. The second thing, over the next three days, I'm going to meet with all of the managers in baseball and the topic you raised will be one thing I intend to address with them. It is simply not appropriate to express whatever frustration you may have about the Astros situation by putting someone physically at risk by throwing at them. It's not acceptable.

    Usually this time of year, there's a lot of optimism and people excited about baseball. Clearly that's not currently the case. When does that page get turned?

    It'll take a little time here. I really do believe it'll take time. It'll be driven by individual decisions, comments made by players, organizations & MLB.

    Anything else you'd like to say?

    I'm good.
     
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  8. KePoW

    KePoW Contributing Member

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    Correa should not be going into deep details with public comments like that. Do any of yall actually think that will make the rest of the country/media less mad? It just makes it worse.

    However Bellinger is acting like a whiny dikweed, along with some other players. The punishment has been made and is final, just move on with it. There's a reason for no double jeopardy in the justice system.
     
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  9. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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  10. astrosrule

    astrosrule Member

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    His opinion is beyond irrelevant, who cares what he thinks?
     
  11. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    I’m happy Carlos stood up for himself. No one will be satisfied unless they give the rings back. **** everybody.
     
  12. Baseballa

    Baseballa Member

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    This Yu quote makes me madder than anything else in this whole saga because it perfectly encompasses every single aspect that has gone haywire. “The Astros need to make a more sincere apology” what does that mean? Who is he talking about? What does he find insincere about what the individual players have said? This damn apology tour is absurd because nothing will ever be enough.

    But more so that second point: “we should be able to say what we want about the Astros but they shouldn’t be allowed to rebut” is apparently what every major leaguer believes. And aside from Mr Autism in Cincinnati, every single player has backed down when we push back.

    **** Yu. **** Bellinger. **** the rest of the league. 162-0, I’ve never been so ready for blood.
     
  13. Baseballa

    Baseballa Member

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    I guarantee even then, people will still be complaining about something. It’s not about justice anymore, it’s mob mentality. It’s about “how far can we bury the Astros.”
     
  14. arkoe

    arkoe (ง'̀-'́)ง

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    Chris Sale? A Red Sox player? :confused:
     
  15. bloodwings19

    bloodwings19 Member

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    Cheating is wrong, but I can't wait when the season starts that we have a better record this year than the cheating year. It is wrong that a lot of people put us cheating on the same level as President voter frauds, college cheating scandal, or cheating on the wife. Speaking of buzzers, if you are wearing one, doesn't it hurt if you get beaned by it and uncomfortable wearing it. And why would you put it on the jersey, I would put on the elbow pad :) The more Stros blasphemy, the more I want this year to be the best year for the Stros. I'm hoping Tuve gets career high in steals.

    I hope we don't draw first blood, but Bauer plays in NL and he will be hitting in the 9th spot.
     
    #2355 bloodwings19, Feb 16, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
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  16. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

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    https://theathletic.com/1611979/202...old-the-yankees-and-his-return-to-the-tigers/

    On the Astros

    On Aug. 31, 2017, the Houston Astros selected Maybin off waivers. He left the Angels and joined the Astros for their stretch run to the World Series. In 21 games as an Astro, Maybin hit only .186. He also hit four home runs in 59 at-bats — intriguing when compared to his six homers in 336 previous at-bats that year. In the postseason, Maybin had two hits in seven at-bats. According to unofficial video analysis from signstealingscandal.com, there was evidence of trash-can banging on 23.2 percent of the pitches Maybin faced during Astros home games.

    Maybin spent 2019 playing with the Yankees, and in this interview, he indicated he warned the Yankees about potential sign-stealing, perhaps before the 2019 ALCS, when the Astros beat the Yankees in six games.

    We have to ask about 2017. When all that stuff broke, when you see the swirl, what are you taking away from that?

    Honestly, I think I definitely have to start out by saying: The things that went on in that 2017 season with the Astros, in which I was there for a month and some change, definitely don’t reflect how I approach the game and play the game. Hindsight is 20/20; it’s tough. Being in a locker room and knowing what was going on, we all could have definitely said something about it. Personally, for me, it’s tough coming into an organization that late and thinking you’re just gonna change something. Again, there’s no excuse, but to see it unfold now, I can’t say I’m surprised.

    Do you feel like the accomplishment of that team was tarnished?

    I know people are definitely gonna have their opinions. When you go into a locker room with a group of guys … you create a brotherhood and a friendship, camaraderie and chemistry. For me, I appreciate the bond you always get in this game and the relationship that you create. But do you understand people’s opinion if they think so? I can’t be mad at anybody if they truly think that it is tarnished. People are definitely entitled to their opinion.

    How quickly did you become aware of what was going on (with the sign stealing)? And how much did you engage in it?

    For me, luckily I was never really pressured. I got there with a month (left). It took me a week or two before I even heard about it. But I was never really pressured about it. With that said, I just tried to keep my head down and approach the game the way I’ve always approached it. I appreciate not really being pressured about it. That system was — hearing what I’m hearing now — it was very much in play well before spring training ever started. I’m not a guy who goes in and tries to ask a lot of questions. I go in, try to keep my head down and do what I’m always accustomed to doing. But it was a tough situation.

    You must not have gotten the memo. You hit, like, .180.

    (Laughs) Exactly. … It’s got some validity to it. You were right; I didn’t get the memo.

    With guys all across baseball upset about what happened in Houston, do you feel like you have to address that with these guys (in the clubhouse) at all?

    How can I put that? With these guys, I will. If they ask me about it, 100 percent. I’ll be open. I’ve been on other teams. I’m very loyal to who I’m playing for. I’m loyal to the guys I take a locker room with. With that said, I’m gonna be as open as I’ve been with any other team that I’ve been on about anything that they might want to know. Happened to be on a Yankees team last year that faced the Astros. What I was able to do last year in New York was so special for me with how they embraced me. I say, as a kid, that’s what you dream about, that expectation, that level of fans, and you don’t have time to take a day off. They’ll let you know immediately.

    With that said, going into a tough series, these were my brothers. There was a conversation had about possibilities that I’ll keep between those guys. But to answer your question, I’ll be more than willing to be open with my brothers that are gonna be here, like I have in the past. Things stay between me and whatever team I played with.

    So, by that, you mean in New York you indicated, ‘Hey, this is what they might be doing …”?

    We had a conversation, and I’ll keep that conversation between them. But … a lil’ heads-up.
     
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  17. jtexan

    jtexan Member

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    I have a suspicion that Manfred is going to strip the title. He wants this whole thing to just go away, and I think he knows that vacating the championship is really the only way to do that. As long as the Astros are allowed to keep their rings, he will continue to feel the heat from players and fans. Think about it, if the title is stripped, the backlash immediately stops...what would you do?
     
  18. tx2005

    tx2005 Member

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    I doubt it. He doubled down on not doing so in his interview today. Then again who knows at this point.
     
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  19. Baseballa

    Baseballa Member

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    The backlash won’t stop. You think Bauer will shut his mouth for the first time in his life? You think opposing fans will act any less maniacally? It will just morph from outrage to taunting. Again, we are past the point of any resolution.
     
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  20. sew

    sew Member

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    Doesn't matter. No one outside of Houston recognizes 2017 as legitimate anyways.
     
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