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Should we be ok with occasionally selfish plays?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by haven, Jan 17, 2004.

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  1. haven

    haven Member

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    Fantastic win, tonight.

    And we won against a good team, easily... even though there were a few plays that Francis reverted to his old-school "I'm gonna take 3 players on and then shoot a fade-away."

    He did this, IIRC, on a couple of possessions in the 2nd quarter... and again a bit in the 4th during the Wolves' mini-comeback.

    Now, this is not a Francis bashing thread. What I'm trying to figure out is... is there a point at which players' bad habits become acceptable when moderated?

    The case for tolerating occasional Francis-against-the-world plays:

    First of all, we want Steve to be happy. If he's miserable playing basketball, and is not at his best, then the team's going to suffer. It might decrease offensive efficiency for a few plays a game, but that's a low price to pay for a happy super star.

    Also, maybe it will actually help him kick start his game. If he's trying to work in the flow of the offense, but just hasn't had any luck or shots... maybe it's a good idea to let him loose a few times a game to let him strut his stuff and see if he can do something spectacular.

    The case for wanting Francis to always play within the offense:

    The goal of any possession is to score. Francis taking on the world is never, ever more efficient than a sensible offensive set. That's not saying he can never take his man off the dribble (we love that!) - just that he should only do so when the odds are in his favor, etc, and that if it's not there, he shouldn't force the issue.

    If he has to play selfish, me-first basketball to be happy... well, that's either going to have to change or he's going to have to leave. Tolerating selfish play, even occasionally, sends the wrong message to the rest of the team.
     
  2. yipengzhao

    yipengzhao Member

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    You know I'm big on Yao getting touches and everyone making the extra pass. But you know Steve is doing alright these days... I know what you're talking about: there was this one play where he posted up two players and went for a fadeaway. I'm okay with him doing that once or twice a game. I'm more worried about the turnovers, the travels, the palming violations, the carries, and the dribbling into trouble and getting tied up. I think Cat is the one that could stand to make more passes.
     
  3. fietguy

    fietguy Member

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    did you see the whole area yelling at the rockets to pass it to yao when he was under the basket all by himself for 6 seconds...

    doc rivers and commentor commented that they were absolutely miffed at how they could miss yao...

    toyota center was loud at that play, or non play, and yao was screaming, demanding and waving his arms in the air and we somehow failed to see him
     
  4. haven

    haven Member

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    I think Steve played a nearly-ideal game today. He still turns the ball over too much, but that's something that's more technical.

    All in all, I think I'm ok as well with his occasionally burning need to take over the game... but I'm not quite sure.

    It's just really annoying... every few plays, you can just see that Steve has decided that he's going to try to score this play, and that he's not even really looking at anybody else, regardless of how the defense operates.

    Incidentally, I'm not complaining here about any lack of passing to Yao. Steve does this regardless of whether Yao's on the court... and it's just as stupid either way.

    But when the rest of his game is going as well as today, perhaps allowances can be made.
     
  5. fietguy

    fietguy Member

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    area=arena
     
  6. yipengzhao

    yipengzhao Member

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    In a sense I'm okay with that since Taylor ended up getting two points at line.

    But in a sense I wish Yao could have caught it and done an alley oop to himself off the backboard.
     
  7. RunninRaven

    RunninRaven Member
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    These last couple of seasons, I have come to realize that perhaps the occasional selfish guard play is not as bad as I originally thought, just as you suggest, haven. Cato's situation is somewhat similar. Under Rudy, the only shots he ever took were alley oops. While Cato most apparently enjoys throwing those down as much as anyone, it is also apparent that he enjoys the occasional "Dream shake" or jump shot, when open. It's a low percentage shot, but if it keeps Cato involved in the game, physically and mentally, then it is a small price to pay for that intensity that he brings. I think that's why you don't really see Van Gundy berating Kelvin on the sidelines whenever he does take the once-a-half ill-advised shot.
     
  8. haven

    haven Member

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    Eh, I don't think this is a Yao-related issue. Steve possibly preferring to pass the ball to players other than Yao is a separate matter. Here, I'm only worried about the occasions on which Steve decides to revert to 1-on-5 basketball... and whether the rest of his plays justifies it.
     
  9. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    First, I don't think we have to worry about keeping Steve happy. People keep saying he will start pouting or complaining but he never does. This is his worst year statistically ever but he maintains a good attitude and work ethic.

    Second, sometimes we do want him to "take on the world," such as when our offense isn't working or if other guys just don't have it. Sam Cassell had to do this a little bit today to help out the T-Wolves. Guys like Tim Duncan have to force up a few shots every game because they are the best option. But, Steve really needs to figure out when to do this. There are good times to do it, and bad times. He can't do it out of frustration from a bad call or because he got burned.
     
  10. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

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    In some ways, he reminds me of the early Akeem years. It took him quite a few years to learn to play with emotion but not let it get the best of him.

    Steve is improving but he still has a ways to go.
     
  11. DonKnutts

    DonKnutts Member

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    I look at it like any bad habit, like, say, quitting smoking: Stevie was once a two-packs-a-day chain smoker and in the past year he's cut it down to ten or so per game. Hopefully, the dependency will continue to wane. He may always be a recreational smoker, but at least it will be under control. Call Van Gundy "The Patch," if you will.

    Another thing: Obviously we're all Rockets fans here and we (over)scrutinize every Houston possession, which is what rabid fans are supposed to do. But let's not have unreasonable expectations either. Here's a suggestion: in the next non-Rockets NBA game you watch, concentrate on the guard play as if you were watching Steve and Cat, and make note of any selfish play or foolish turnover. I get the feeling some perspective is needed.
     
  12. haven

    haven Member

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    Good point, there.

    I'd go crazy if I were a Lakers fan. Kobe's sometimes selfish habits get all the press, but at least he's a great player.

    Sometimes Derek Fisher will rush a shot before making a single pass, even if he's not open. I'd be tearing my hair out... Kobe, Shaq... and Derek Fisher's taking bonehead shots.
     
  13. London'sBurning

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    I don't mind Steve taking shots as long as they're within the flow of the game, and he doesn't neglect his teammates. Even moreso I want him to cut back on the unforced turnovers, something good transition teams like the Kings and Dallas exploit so well. While his turnovers as of late have been in very high numbers, I like the fact that he's still making a big effort in getting his teammates involved. I think eventually he'll figure out when to make the right pass and when not to. Even more importantly, I think he'll figure out that flashy crossovers aren't always necessary. There were a couple of turnovers tonight that could of been avoided if he just broke the habit of overdribbling with crossovers and palming the ball. I like the KISS policy. Keep it simple stupid.
     
  14. RunninRaven

    RunninRaven Member
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    The biggest problem I have seen of Francis and selfish play is not as much him wanting to revert back to playground ball as much as it is ego. He seems to be goaded into one on one matches very easily by opposing point guards. He let it happen with Cassell today for a short stretch. Cassell hit a couple shots in a row on him, and Steve came back absolutely determined to score. You can see it in his body language. That's the play when Cassell took the charge. Steve just kept making moves, they weren't working, but he wouldn't pass off. I'm hoping as he continues to grow older and wiser, he won't let opposing players get into his head quite so much.
     
  15. DavidS

    DavidS Member

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    haven, if Francis had more offensive ablity than he does now, JVG would allow more plays to be run exclusively for him. And he'd get more ISOlations run for him. But since he's not Jordan or Melo. He has to play within his ability.

    Now, this does not mean that he can't go ISO when there's presure or the clock is running down (4,3,2,1....shoot!!!!). He does have athletic ablity to be able to make HARD/PRESSURED SHOTS. But that should not be a precursor of forgetting the system/rest of his teammates.

    Relying on the system and teammates is what will give Francis consistency over the long 82 game season...and play-offs. Only rely (in Francis case) on ISO when one HAS to.

    Francis best option is the pick and roll. He's a killer on the p/r when it's run properly.
     
    #15 DavidS, Jan 17, 2004
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2004
  16. pasox2

    pasox2 Member
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    Occasional - yes. That's even desireable.

    I wish Yao would demand the ball and try to split the double team. Steve can beat the double and should a few times a game to make the defense respect him, and get in their head. That's what great players do.

    On the other hand, if the defense sees you goof with a me-against-the-world craze; they know they got you, and your team is toast.

    It's a balance to know when you got'em, and when you don't. The great ones get it, and the wannabees don't.
     
  17. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

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    I see that as good an bad. On the good side, it demonstrates Francis' fierce determination to be the best at his game and compete at the highest level. All the great one's had the same attitude.

    On the bad side, this is something that he should learn from guys like Cassell. Cassell had a tendency when he was young to do the same thing, but he had guys like Olajuwon and Drexler around him - i.e. veterans - to calm him down and get him to play within himself.

    Steve is MUCH better than he used to be, but he still has a ways to go.
     
  18. Doctor Robert

    Doctor Robert Member

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    I actually like him playing a little one on one occasionally..... unless it is an emotional reaction to something. The only play today that I noticed he was really being selfish was when he got upset about something (can't remember exactly) and he went back down the court and got an offensive foul by barreling over Cassell.

    I think we still need a better sense of rythm in the offense, which Steve needs to initiate. He needs to vary the tempo more so the defense doesn't know what is coming so easily. If playing one on one gives the defense one more thing to think about, I'm all for it.

    For the record: Steve's FG% over the last 5 games is 46.3%.
     
  19. DavidS

    DavidS Member

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    I did see this a little bit. But nothing like the "Chucky Atkins" debacle.
     
  20. Doctor Robert

    Doctor Robert Member

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    I didn't read your post beforehand Rave.
     

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