OK, I don't think I'm in the minority here when I say that it's time for the Rox to finally wave GOODBYE to the ISO-based offense they've run (and yes, I know, won 2 Championships with) since Rudy's been at the helm in favor of a system that better fits their personnel (assuming that there aren't any major roster moves). The best system that suits the current roster is (I can't believe that I'm about to post this) the motion-based offense used by ............UTAH!! WHY??? Glad you asked. 1. Jump-shooting PFs/Cs (Mo, Collier, and KT) who are also good passers and more comfortable working at the high-post. Malone is one of the best jump-shooting big men of all time (even his turnaround is more of a stepback J than a pure turnaround), and he's an accomplished passer. We would only be so lucky if these two could develop Malone's consistency, but they do possess similar outside Js and passing potential. 2. SGs who are better at playing off of motion and PG penetration than creating their own offense. Anderson doesn't have the ball-handling skills to consistently create, while Mobley is a HORRIBLE decision-maker at times, especially when he's made his inital move. But both have shown the ability to move well without the ball, and Cat in particular is at his best in a catch-and-shoot role. The same holds true for the SFs. Neither is athletic enough to consistently drive to the hoop, but are good at coming off picks and if the defender successfully fights through continue the play with a drive due to spacing and position (Walt is VERY good at that). But they need to get the movement and space that running off picks affords them in order to consistently drive. 3. Strong PGs with the ability to create and stick the open J, but also have the ability to move without the ball. Has anyone noticed how Steve in particular will drop the pass off to Walt/Shandon/Cat, then set a screen for Olajuwon along the baseline so that Dream can get deep position, and then pop back out to the top, a la Stockton. I actually like that play. It gives Olajuwon the option of taking the shot, kicking back out to the wing, or swinging it back to the top to Steve who can then take the middle-distance shot, pentrate for the drive, or create for the SG at the wing or corner. It's a classic Jazz play. Or how the SG and SF will run a weave at the top of the weakside off of a pick set by the PF, with the SG (usually Shandon) diving down the middle and the SF fading to the wing. The PG, who is at the elbow on the strong side, will then either hit Shandon slashing through the lane, pass to the PF for the J, or kick it over the D to the SF for the J off of a move to the middle. It's a really nice set that I'd like to see them run more often, and is one of several reasons that point to the fact that the current edition of the Rockets would be more effecient in a motion-based O. Please address all comments to management. THANK YOU AND HAVE A NICE DAY. ------------------ "We make a lot, but we spend a lot." Patrick Ewing, alumnus, Georgetown University
The Rockets? Copying the Jazz??!!!! Urge to kill... rising... ------------------ She hates testicles, thus limiting the men she can admire to Democratic candidates for president. -- John Greenway, "The American Tradition", on feminist Elizabeth Gould Davis
Live...where did you come from? If you aren't a bi-uid, you are definitely my selection for best new poster. Now I get to argue more about offensive systems...hehe. Just because an offensive system has many options, does not make it motion-based. When the Jazz come at you over and over with a 2 man game with weakside options, we are not seeing motion. Not even close. They have no motion! Phoenix has motion, not Utah. There is nothing magical about Utah's pnr. It is their players, not the system. Nobody in the NBA can play that offense like they can. Emulating them is a mistake, imo. And I'm sure there are as many people who are tired of that system in Utah, as there were those who yelled in '95 and '96 for change in Houston.
about #3. Yes, I've seen that, too. It is one of our basic entries. About the weave, I'm having trouble recalling that one. Could you name a game? or a quarter in which you've see that. I have a cool alley-oop for ya that has weakside options, as well. Rewind to The Timeout in the Indiana game. I've see this every game. Also, Rudy is calling out a "24 High" play which is the high pnr that Mobley has been running (starting with the Indiana game). Get him around the pick into the middle, and you have Utah's pnr right there. Even better since Francis is one weakside option vs Hornachek. hey management: Do you really think Mobley's decision making is poor once he commits to the basket? I think his dishes in the lane are very underrated on the bbs.
In the words of one J.J. Evans, "Well, you know, what can I say?" Where did I come from? I've just been lurking in the weeds, visiting this site, and getting acclimated before I decided to contribute my insight into our beloved Rockets. Now as for the weave play, they only run the play once or twice a game, but they run it. Like I wrote, KT (can't remember seeing it run with Mo in game) usually sets the high pick, with Shandon coming over first, inside, and down the middle, and Walt coming over the top and to the wing or corner. They tend to run it with Shandon making more of a looping, L-shaped dive more than a straight-line drive. The beauty of the set is that it takes advantage of Shandon's slashing, Walt's spot-ups, and KT's/Mo's J, while Dream/Cato can slide baseline for the putback if Shandon is short or if a J goes long. I've seen the set, but I can't think of a particular time/game. I do remember them running it once during the Portland game because I had the opportunity to attend it and the set really has a lot of potential. Yeah, Heypartner, you're right. Utah doesn't exactly run a pure motion O, which means that I don't have to give them any credit. What I would like to see on occassion is a double high post set with Walt setting a screen along the baseline for Shandon. As he sets the screen, Steve slides to Shandon's side, the weakside post slides down and sets a pick for Walt, who then curls into the middle. If they deny the ball to Shandon, Steve could then hit Walt coming over the pick, or yell some sort of option call where Steve would then look to drive the middle. Walt would then stop of the screen, thereby shielding his defender, Steve would drive over a pick set by the strong side post and then down the middle. At this point, the strong side post defender would have to make a choice: 1. Cut off Steve and thereby leave his man who could either spot-up, fade, set a pick for Shandon coming from the baseline, or roll to the basket. 2. Let Steve drive the middle, where from there he can score, create, or kick out. What do you think? (Sorry it's so long) ------------------ "We make a lot, but we spend a lot." Patrick Ewing, alumnus, Georgetown University
The only person Mobely creates for is Cuttino, there is no "other." ------------------ "There are two players carrying the Rockets right now. Hakeem and Olajuwon." Isiah Thomas
I agree w/ Live in alot of ways. while not a true motion offense Utah's offense is one of the most EFFICIENT in the league. IMO the suns run the best motion offense after watching a game after HP's suggestion but.. the team that runs a very underrated offense is minnesota. minnesota has a good balance of jump shooting and posting up. they have players like wally and billups come of screens and spot up for jump shots. but they dont shoot a ton of 3s like we do. they also have people cutting deep in the post and of course a bread and butter move is having garnett post. houston's offense like i have said before is alot of playground ball. we could use some more passing. and mobley should start lower down the court and flash up for the ball. i hate to see him carry the ball up the court because Live is right he does make horrible decisions. i wish we could have some more low post instead of high post and some cuts and movement or something new would be nice. ------------------ --TEX [This message has been edited by TeXaSalsa (edited December 07, 2000).]
You are dead on correct on this one. In fact, the Jazz have been one of the most efficient (almost surgically accurate) offensive team in the NBA for many years, but it has less to do with the system, IMO, than it does with the players. When you have the same type of players and, in the case of Stockton and Malone, the actual same players for so many years, the repetitive play becomes a well-oiled offensive machine. While they may be boring, they are extremely effective. Unfortunatley or not, the Rockets won't have that kind of offensive continuity until their players gain some more experience. It took Stockton and Malone about 8 years to perfect that pick and roll they run so well. It will take our guys time to learn their roles as well. ------------------ Mmmmmmm. Sacrelicious.
TeXaSalsa, ding ding ding!!! You are on the money my friend about Minnesota. They're just so unselfish and are really enjoyable to watch. ------------------ "We make a lot, but we spend a lot." Patrick Ewing, alumnus, Georgetown University
OFF subject Im sorry, but that is a verry ignorant post. Cuttino averages more assists than alot of his teamates. Also Cuttino is not asked to cary a heavy passing load. That is Steve, and Moochies job. Furthermore Cuttino gets verry little respect in this league as made evident by the lack of respect on this BBS. Cat jest began getting doubled up last year, and verry few teams actually prepared for HIM as someone they needed to stop untill recently. Cat has yet to get the benefit of the doubt from the refs, and when that happens those offensive fouls become freethrows. I dont think people were complaining about his selfishness when he played point as a rookie. ON subject. Hell I dont care what offence we play, as long as we win. but on that note I would like to think that Rudy will institute a more uptempo shooter/slasher based offence. later ------------------ Hanta-Force Paintball http://www.hanta-force.com
Live, you know, I think I've seen that. Not from a box set that you seem to describe, but from a 1-4 set up high that immediately has Shandon and Walt cross along the baseline trying to get Shandon loose point blank. What makes it hard for me to commit to saying such a thing is a play is that Francis rarely gets to the entry point you describe. Defenses just don't allow it enough for us to see repetition of anything that allows Francis an option down the middle. So, I'm left saying, "Was there really an option there, or was Stevie improvising, because the real option was denied." you know what I mean?
While I think that the Utah's style of play could benefit us in some ways, I also think it would stifle some of Francis' and Mobley's creativity. Whatever else you think of Mobley, he certainly has the ability to take his man off the dribble, and pass tot he open man under the basket if he can't score himself. I think that Utah's offense has been so successful because it complemented their players almost perfectly. To impose it upon Houston would be like trying to fit a square peg through a round hole. I hope that Rudy attempts to implement an offense that complements and enhances the Rocket's strengths. Neither Thomas nor Taylor can shoot as well as Malone. Mobley's much faster, much better w/ball in hand that Hornacek. Francis is far more athletic than Stockton, but less precise with his passing (just pointing out some differences). The pick and roll has worked well for Houston when used, and should be used more often, that much I'll agree with. ------------------ Shandon Anderson rocks. The lottery sucks. Playoffs 2001. [This message has been edited by haven (edited December 07, 2000).]
Haven: You know who, IMO, the second best pick n' roll man can be in this game from the 15-18ft area is -HAKEEM OLAJUWON! Why is this play not used by the Rockets? Hakeem is lethal from the 15-18ft range. ------------------ Francis, use the Chronicle for toilet paper from now on-Rocketbooster
Haven, my friend, I respectfully disagree with you about a motion offense (let's forget about Utah's system for now) not fitting the Rockets personnel, if that's what you were trying to imply. Actually Mobley would be perfect coming off picks and cutting to the hole due to his creativity and ball-handling, all hallmarks of a motion-offense. And I happen to think that Mobley is a WONDERFUL young talent, but like all young players has alot to learn. Remember, even Barkley said that Mobley would/is going to be a hell of a player, but in order for him to realize his potential and the Rockets to be a better team they had to move him from the point to the 2. Even he said that Mobley just couldn't be the point in order for the Rockets to be a good team, and implied that he just didn't have the requisite mentality to QB the team. It's not an attack on him personally or a question of talent, just an issue of approach. On another note, don't you think it's about time that the Rockets work Mo into the offense by setting him up on the low block more often. It's maddening to see him do that squatting, dribbling between the legs move, and then watch him shot an 18 footer. The guy does have a nice jump hook and looks like he has a little up-and-under move. So until then, I resolve to limit my Mo bashing until he gets more low post opportunities. TAKE CARE!!! ------------------ "We make a lot, but we spend a lot." Patrick Ewing, alumnus, Georgetown University
Heypartner I must disagree with you there. You remember when Dream got his eye socket broken by Big Bill Cartwright? Dream was out for 14 games or so was he not? We went undefeated. Kenny Smith played Stockton, and Otis Thorpe played Malone with Maxwell playing Jeff Malone gone bad. We ran the pick and roll to death and in my honest oppinion we played it better than Utah does. Now you are asking why doesn't anyone else play it. Players of today refuse to play it. Thats the only thing I can think of. It is the easiest offense there is, but its boring for the new age players. Anyhow just my two cents. ------------------ "We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day
I think Live is HeyPee's alter ego. I think he got tired of being the only one on this bbs that discussed plays so started to talk to himself. I bet the next thing he does is start burn his hand and start a fight club. PS. When's the next time that you'll add another movie to your site, HP.
I'm with heypartner on this one. Utah employs very little motion offense. Most of their plays are based around weak side screens and pick and rolls. Motion offense is one of the most difficult to run and, when not done perfectly, is generally the least effective. That is why almost no one employs it on a regular basis. Dr. Jack Ramsey just mentioned something about the triangle in his latest mailbag column on ESPN.com: Why does Tim Floyd insist on using the triangle offense? Especially with such a inexperienced team, do you think this offense is the best option? Joe L Des Moines, Iowa Dear Joe, I was told by someone close to the Bulls organization that a condition on which coach Tim Floyd was hired by GM Jerry Krause was that he must use the triangle offense. I agree with you that the triangle is a complex system that requires skilled, veteran NBA players to execute well. Phil Jackson has had success with it at both Chicago and Los Angeles, but he's had Tex Winter, the author of the triangle, with him at both places; and he's also had solid vets and star players like Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant. Several other teams have tried this style in recent years, but abandoned it because it was too difficult to teach and didn't produce results. The Bulls' level of talent is such right now that they would struggle to win regardless of the offense used, but a simpler system might make them more competitive. I rate Floyd a good coach, but he must have better, more experienced players to have a chance to win in the NBA. The triangle offense hasn't helped him much (32-116 record to date) . ------------------ Mmmmmmm. Sacrelicious.
I AIN'T NO HEYPARTNER (no offense)! I be me own man with me own opinions, thank you very much!! Heypartner, management just sent me this in response to your question about Mobley (you know how bosses can be, always rushing you but late to get back to you when you need something): Mr. Mobley, bless his heart, is well-meaning in his attempts to create for others, but just seems to have too much of a scorer's mentality, a form of "tunnel vision" or single-mindedness if you will, once he has begun his inital move to be consistently effective at it. This is especially true on his drives to the basket, which is puzzling at times due to Mr. Mobley's possession of a nice pull-up jumper off the dribble. All too often he forces his shot and thereby makes a bad attempt or is called for an offensive foul. It is our opinion that Mr. Mobley's deficiencies as a playmaker come more from his immaturity as a professional at this point than from a lack of talent, and in due time Mr. Mobley will prove to be a solid playmaker. Management ------------------ "We make a lot, but we spend a lot." Patrick Ewing, alumnus, Georgetown University
Voice of Reason, sorry you think my question is ignorant. Cuttino is 3rd on the team in assists, and I believe second in minutes. He has a much higher points to assists ratio then any Rocket. But, Steve is the only Rocket that averages more then 3 assists a game, and he's averaging less than 6. I guess we get our assists from everyone. My point was, Cuttino is a natural scorer, and he knows it. He has alot of confidence in himself, and I don't blame him. Scoring's not a crime, but sometimes I think that's all he worries about. Cuttino sounds like a good guy who does care about winning, so take my ignorant comments in stride. It is just my opinion. ------------------ "There are two players carrying the Rockets right now. Hakeem and Olajuwon." Isiah Thomas
