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Should creationism be a part of public school curriculum?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by underoverup, Jul 11, 2003.

  1. underoverup

    underoverup Member

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    I think that there is plenty of time on Sunday to teach our kids intelligent design/ creationism. What ever happened to the separation of church and state?

    "I'm here to keep outside forces from removing science from science books," said David Hillis, a biology professor at the University of Texas. "The goal (of Discovery) is to insert a religious and political agenda into the science classroom."

    While intelligent design, which claims that a higher power directed human development, is more scientific, critics said it couldn't be included because it had not been peer reviewed by reputable scientists. Raymond Bohlin, speaking on behalf of the Discovery Institute, said Darwin's Origin of the Species was not peer reviewed.

    Evolution sparking latest textbook firestorm
    By Marti Maguire
    San Antonio Express-News

    AUSTIN — Controversy over textbooks erupted again Wednesday as scientists and members of the public addressed the Board of Education over the treatment of evolution in biology textbooks.
    Nearly all of the three dozen speakers defended the teaching of evolution against a report that questioned the accuracy of evidence supporting the scientific theory in the 11 biology texts being considered for adoption in Texas.

    After Discovery Institute — a Seattle-based public policy group — submitted the 55-page report, teachers, scientists and activists went on the offensive.

    They said they feared that the elected board, dominated by conservative members, would use the report to influence publishers to include references to creationism or "intelligent design" as a scientific theory.

    While intelligent design, which claims that a higher power directed human development, is more scientific, critics said it couldn't be included because it had not been peer reviewed by reputable scientists.

    Raymond Bohlin, speaking on behalf of the Discovery Institute, said Darwin's Origin of the Species was not peer reviewed.

    "Often new scientific ideas are not welcomed in the scientific literature," said Bohlin, who holds a doctorate in biology and is director of communications at Probe Ministries in Richardson.

    Texas Freedom Network Director Samantha Smoot called Discovery's analysis "creationism dressed up in a lab coat," and stressed that good science books are needed to prepare students for both the TAKS and careers in medicine and biotechnology.

    "I'm here to keep outside forces from removing science from science books," said David Hillis, a biology professor at the University of Texas. "The goal (of Discovery) is to insert a religious and political agenda into the science classroom."

    The meeting was reminiscent of last year's four-month battle over the adoption of social studies textbooks.

    Trustees Terri Leo, R-Houston, and Don McLeroy, R-Bryan, questioned several speakers at the public hearing, asking whether perceived weaknesses in evolutionary theory should be included in textbooks.

    Leo said publishers shouldn't remove evolution or insert religion into books, but should present both the strengths and the weaknesses of Darwin's theory.

    "If we censor out scientific weaknesses, we limit the best of our educators by addressing them to avoid debate of different viewpoints and to explore the range of theories in the classroom," Leo said.

    The elected board does not alter textbook content, but can reject books because of mistakes or because they don't match the state curriculum.

    Another public hearing will be held in September, and a vote on new books for both biology and English as a second language, which will cost an estimated $90 million, will take place in November.
     
  2. dn1282

    dn1282 Member

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    First, WTF?

    Second, how would it work out? Who would be the creator? How would they make it appeal to all kids? I can see parents of all ethnicities and religions becoming pissed. CHAOS.
     
  3. Dubious

    Dubious Member

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    The weakness of evolution?

    Somebody should hit those guys over the head with a big fossil.
     
  4. Princess

    Princess Member

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    Separation of Church and State. Period. That's all.

    Science is science. It's based on theories. The purpose of science is to examine things. When a theory is created, it is examined and after that, the search is on to prove it wrong. So far, there is no real proof that evolution is incorrect.

    Creation is a religious idea. Not scientific. There was no scientific method applied. There is no examining it or trying to prove it wrong. People who believe in creation do not seek other answers. It's not science. It's faith.

    This isn't even about trying to get theology taught at school. This is about integrating religion into a subject so that it CAN be taught in school (I know many students read the Bible and such, but it is not taught as a religion...it is treated for the most part as any other work is, like Plato or mythology - it can't be taken to be totally serious). It would be very scary if it found its way in.
     
  5. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    I agree with underoverup that this idea should be taught in Sunday school to the audience that they have. This is not science, there is no science to it, it is simply faith. Faith is not a bad thing IMO, far from it, but it belongs in Sunday school, not in public school.
     
  6. ILoveClutchCity

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    I agree that this should not be in public schools. If parents want their chiildren to learn creationism send them to a private faith based school.
     
  7. reallyBaked

    reallyBaked Member

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    Agreed,

    Teaching fairy tales as fact has no place in public schools.
     
  8. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    Perhaps the 'nitty-gritty' of creationism should not be taught, but the idea that it is a theory certainly should. It is a belief held by millions and millions of folks that can't be ignored. Teachers have to be able to at least talk about different ideas. School is a place for learning and there is nothing wrong with learning alternate theories.

    By the way, the idea of separation of church and state was to not have a 'state sponsored' religion. Teaching various 'ideas' of different religions in a public school does not violate the spirit of that concept.

    I agree that religion-specific thoughts should be taught in a place other than public schools, BUT, the global religious issues should not be ignored.

    You can't teach terrorism throughout history without mentioning religious ideas. You can't talk about the history of the crusades without religion being involved. You can't teach the thoughts behind Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanzaa without religious symbolism.

    If a child asks 'Why do we celebrate Christmas", it is good if a teacher can explain why.

    We certainly want to respect all religions by not focusing on a single one, but to simply ignore religious ideas, theories and reasoning would be to deprive students of a more enlightened view of the world.
     
  9. underoverup

    underoverup Member

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    There are so many different religions which form or whose idea of creationism will be taught? Is intelligent design really a catch all for all religons, or is it really only the Christian idea of how the world was created?
     
  10. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    I disagree that it should be taught in Sunday School. Just because someone is in Sunday School doesn't mean you should teach them faux science. I think in Sunday School it's fine to read the biblical account of creation, and discuss it, learn the lessons of it etc.. The structure of that account is a poem. Poetry even ancient poetry isn't science. I'm a Christian, and I think it's wrong to teach Creationism as Science whether in Sunday School or Public School.
     
  11. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    All theories that espouse to the creation of the universe should be discussed (not necessarily taught). Students should be made aware of different ideas with regards to this as well as other subjects. Teachers could easily say " Millions and millions of people believe the world was created by <insert supreme being here>. For additional information on this you can reference a myriad of resources in the library or on the Internet." Discussion can then ensue. Students can discuss their beliefs and listen to others - who knows, they may learn a thing or two about other cultures and realize that there is more out there than the typical Judeo-Christian belief system. School should be a place of learning. We should not not teach something simply because it touches on religious issues. Again, I am not saying to teach the religious aspect, simply make sure that students are aware of other theories and beliefs.

    Students who believe that the universe is a creation of God (or some other theory) should be allowed to ask questions and discuss why their beliefs are 'wrong'. We cannot limit the right of students to understand and learn. Teaching only evolution and 'big bang' limits their access to a fuller understanding of their world.
     
  12. Puedlfor

    Puedlfor Member

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    If you are going to do that, it would be best to do two things, in my opinion :

    1) Teach it in a Social Studies class, not a science class. Creationism is a nice belief, but it has no grounding in science and as such does not belong in a scientific discussion.

    2) Don't call it a theory, its not. It's a belief. There is a difference. Calling it a theory assumes that it has been held to the rigors of the scientific method and that there is significant scientific evidence to support it. It has not, there is not.

    It's a belief, and teaching such a belief in a Social Studies class about world religions is not only fine by me - but I would actually like that. But it doesn't belong in a science class.
     
  13. reallyBaked

    reallyBaked Member

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    exactly what I was going to say.

    I would further argue that adding a required class in World Religions type class should looked at. Teaching kids more about how people around the world think can only help us become a better society. Showing kids that there is a world out there besides MTV and that someone who lives in Pakistan or Malyasia has different priorites/viewpoints/beliefs/morals etc is lacking in our culture.
     
  14. Severe Rockets Fan

    Severe Rockets Fan Takin it one stage at a time...

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    Exactly Bobrek...I was hoping they would do that in sunday school as well, you know, teach them all the religious beliefs. Don't you agree?
     
  15. reallyBaked

    reallyBaked Member

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    Organized religion is way too paranoid and close-minded to accept, much less teach other viewpoints...

    It took the Pope how many years to aglogize to Galieo Galieo (sp?) ? for branding him a heretic for saying the Earth wasn't the center of the universe ?
     
  16. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    Unfortunately the religious education programs (at least those in the Catholic Church) that I am familiar with are taught by parents or volunteers who receive limited training and are time restricted. I agree that it would be great to at least familiarize the kids with other doctrines.

    I have always been frustrated by the religious ed programs run by the churches I am familiar with because they seem to focus more on moral issues (Jimmy found $1.00 - what should he do?) rather than on the history of the religion and why the religion 'does what it does'.
     
  17. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    I think that there are parts of evolution (eg. abiogenesis, development of sexual reproduction, and increasing order of complexity) that I have not seen enough proof of to discount the validity of teaching creation (or intelligent design, or anything else that doesn't depend on random mutation) as a legitimate alternative for the origin of all life.
     
  18. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    I haven't seen enough proof of any theory to discount the validity of teaching that mankind was created by space aliens or super intelligent robots from the moon. Can we teach my theories, too? I have faith in them.
     
  19. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    There are hundreds of different religious stories of creation. Which one would we possibly choose teach? Oh yeah, the Christian one of course.
     
  20. underoverup

    underoverup Member

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    The Discovery institute seems to go out of their way to hide the fact they are a religious organization. There are more articles about the Texas textbook situation along with other issues they support or oppose at their site, which tries to convince the reader it is purely scientific.

    Clarifying the Issues in the Texas Textbook Controversy

    By: Discovery Staff
    Q&A about Discovery Institute and Intelligent Design
    July 10, 2003

    Media Advisory
    July 10, 2003

    On July 9 the Texas State Board of Education heard testimony from two Discovery Institute scholars who encouraged the Board to make sure biology textbooks fulfill state standards and teach students about both the strengths and weaknesses of Darwinian theory. Unfortunately, much of the reporting about Discovery’s views has been factually inaccurate.

    When reporting about Discovery Institute, we encourage reporters to talk with us first. We will gladly assist you and answer your questions, and we have access to many different sources and experts who can explain complicated science issues in easy to understand language.

    For your quick reference, here is information that corrects assorted misstatements that have appeared in recent news accounts.

    1. What is Discovery Institute?

    Founded in 1990, the Institute is a national, non-profit, non-partisan policy and research organization. It has programs on a variety of issues, including regional development, technology policy, legal reform, and bioethics.

    2. What is the Center for Science and Culture?

    Discovery’s Center for Science and Culture encourages schools to improve science education by teaching students more fully about the theory of evolution, as well as supporting the work of scholars who challenge various aspects of neo-Darwinian theory and scholars who are working on an alternative theory known as intelligent design. Discovery’s Center for Science and Culture has more than 40 Fellows, including biologists, biochemists, physicists, philosophers and historians of science, and public policy and legal experts, many of whom have affiliations with colleges and universities.

    3. Does Discovery Institute favor including the Bible or creationism in biology textbooks?

    No. Discovery Institute is not a creationist organization, and it does not favor including either creationism or the Bible in biology textbooks. The Institute is a secular policy and research organization, and its concerns about textbook coverage of evolution have nothing to do with creationism.

    4. Is Discovery Institute trying to eliminate, reduce or censor the coverage of evolution in textbooks?

    No. Far from reducing the coverage of evolution, Discovery Institute seeks to increase the coverage of evolution in textbooks. It believes that students ought to learn more about evolutionary theory, including the theory’s unresolved issues. The true censors are those who want to keep textbooks from including any discussion of the scientific weaknesses of evolutionary theory.

    5. Is Discovery Institute trying to get the Texas Board of Education to put intelligent design in biology textbooks?

    No. The Institute’s goal is to inform policymakers and citizens about factual errors in how some textbooks cover evolutionary theory and to encourage textbooks to include information about both the strengths and weaknesses of evolutionary theory. The 41-page preliminary textbook review Discovery Institute distributed to the Board of Education focused on factual errors and the need to include additional information about four issues—the Miller-Urey experiment, the Peppered Moth experiments, the Cambrian Explosion, and Haeckel’s embryos. The only places that the report broached the subject of intelligent design was in reference to two textbooks that already discuss intelligent design theory. The textbook review noted how these two textbooks discussed intelligent design in a biased and highly inaccurate manner. While the Institute is not advocating that textbooks must cover intelligent design theory, it does believe that textbooks that already mention intelligent design should cover the theory accurately and fairly. Again, the Institute’s chief concern is that evolutionary theory be treated fully and accurately in textbooks, NOT that intelligent design be included.

    6. Is intelligent design theory the same thing as creationism?

    No. Intelligent design theory is an effort to empirically detect whether the “apparent design” in nature acknowledged by virtually all biologists is genuine design (the product of an intelligent cause) or is simply the product of an undirected process such as natural selection acting on random variations. Creationism is focused on defending a literal reading of the Genesis account, usually including the creation of the earth by the Biblical God a few thousand years ago. Unlike creationism, the scientific theory of intelligent design is agnostic regarding the source of design and has no commitment to defending Genesis, the Bible or any other sacred text. The effort to detect design in nature is being adopted by a growing number of biologists, biochemists, physicists, mathematicians, and philosophers of science at colleges and universities around the world. American scholars who adopt a design approach include biochemist Michael Behe of Lehigh University, microbiologist Scott Minnich at the University of Idaho, and mathematician William Dembski at Baylor University.

    http://www.discovery.org/
     
    #20 underoverup, Jul 12, 2003
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2003

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