My intent here is not blanket Islam bashing. I apologize if it devolves into that. I personally found the comments about how to respond to the Sheik, both the more tolerant and less tolerant ones, to be interesting. What is the proper response when someone says something like ths? [rquoter] Sheik blasted for sex sermon At least one Muslim leader has branded Sheik Taj el-Din al Hilaly "out of line" for his comments in blaming immodestly dressed women for sexual assault. Political leaders and contributors to talkback radio today widely condemned the sheik for his comments at a sermon where he blamed women who "sway suggestively" and who wore make-up and no hijab [Islamic scarf] for sexual attacks. The former secretary of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, Shujat Mantoo, said the sheik was probably out of line, but he defended his right to stay in Australia. "There would be many people like [the sheik] who uphold those views, and there would be among mainstream Christians, but we don't simply deport them. We educate them," Mr Mantoo said. Sheik al Hilaly's comments were delivered in a Ramadan sermon to 500 worshippers in Sydney last month, a newspaper report said. "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?" he said. "The uncovered meat is the problem. "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred." The cleric said that he meant to refer to only prostitutes as meat, and not any scantily clad woman without a hijab. Mr Mantoo said the sheik was probably entrenched in the Egyptian culture he was brought up in. "Prostitutes ... enjoy the same rights as any other woman or man in this country and, if he has said that, he has to understand that there is equality before the law." Mr Mantoo likened the cleric's views to those of some elderly judges, who were out of step with mainstream society's standards. The sheik's comments have drawn strong criticism from some federal politicians and the federal Sex Discrimination Commissioner Pru Goward, who said he should be sacked and deported. "It is incitement to a crime. Young Muslim men who now rape women can cite this in court, can quote this man ... their leader in court," she told the Nine Network. "It's time we stopped just saying he should apologise. It is time the Islamic community did more than say they were horrified. I think it is time he left." NSW Premier Morris Iemma denounced the sheik for his "outrageous'' comments and called on the Muslim community to take action against him. "He ought to be held account for his comments,'' Mr Iemma said. "What's in the papers this morning are offensive and outrageous and ought to be condemned and retracted. He does not have a flash record as far as these sorts of statements.'' Treasurer Peter Costello branded the comments "totally unacceptable". He called for Muslim leaders to condemn the comments, disassociate themselves from them, and pull their leader into line. The Treasurer said comparing women to uncovered meat invited people to treat them in a degrading and dehumanising way. He said the leaders of Catholic and the Anglican churches in Australia would never make such a comment. "This is totally unacceptable. This is comparing women to uncovered meat," Mr Costello told the Seven Network. "We really need political leaders to speak out against it. "But I hope that the moderate Muslim leaders will speak out today and condemn these comments. "Make it clear to Muslims that this is not the view of Islam and that they will really take some kind of action to disassociate themselves from the comments which Sheik al Hilaly has made. "And take some action to try and pull him into line." Mr Costello said that, in light of a series of Sydney gang rapes in 2000 committed by young Muslim men, the sheik's message was dangerous because it seemed to justify rape. "If you have a significant religious leader like this preaching to a flock in a situation where we have had gang rapes, in a way that seems to make it justifiable, or at least lighten the dehumanising and degrading extent of the offence, then people that listen to that kind of comment can get the wrong idea. "They can actually think that it is not as bad as it is." [/rquoter]
His view is one-sided but he's entitled to it. There are many people in our society who see it the same way. Just his opinion, nothing more. However, this reaction is idiotic and quiet intolerant of differing -- even if wrong -- view, which sadly seems to be the 'trend' in the more liberal Western nations: "Time he left" and providing a "cover" for rape? That's about as outrageous as what the purported sheikh had to say. He used a bad analogy, to be sure, but not quiet a 'deportable' offense, unless those officials are merely interested in deporting any member of an unpopular minority with unpopular opinions.
Yeah, this is a cultural thing...but from their culture, I'm sure it makes sense. It's just shows how patriarcial islamic culture still is.
Well, the reaction is a bit extreme in terms of deporting him...but he is in a sense saying rape is to be blamed on the woman and not the man...and as a religious leader - that's a bit disturbing. He's spreading views that are influential and quite dangerous since he is excusing and justifying rape as nothing more then a hungry animal smelling meat. I don't think calling for apologies and condemnation of this guy is unreasonable....and comparing woman to meat is pretty dehumanizing.
Wrong, yes, but not a 'deportable' offense. Of course, I am not even going to address the ridiculous notion that every Muslim in the world has to apologize for every word/action by another Muslim in/outside his/her immediate community. It's an idiotic notion and a glaring double-standard that's often nothing more than a camouflage for ignorant individuals who're merely interested in making an imaginary -- and convenient -- connection between what one individual says and an entire community, primarily through demanding a 'denunciation' of said words/actions as if holding all of Islam responsible, which is often the intention.
How does that, then, translate to the "culture of the followers" when you have non-Muslims who hold similar views regarding women who dress/act in provocative fashion? Are you saying that there is no 'degradation/dehumanization' of women in our culture? You really do have a penchant for making blanket accusations/generalizations on so many topics; it's quiet difficult taking you seriously, especially when you constantly misrepresent yourself on this forum.
I don't think asking him to apologize or at least rethink his views is out of the question. And certainly having other Muslims condemning this guy and demonstrating that Muslims don't think this way would be at least useful in preventing people from developing unsavory stereotypes. I don't see why you're against that....or why it's a double standard. Republicans condemned Foley when his behavior came to light....and I think Foley should have apologized. So I don't think there's a double standard there. Of course, how can one apologize for narrow-minded thinking if that's what they truly think??? And now a more sensitive question to you.... Why do Burka's exist in Muslim culture? Doesn't it have to do more with a man's sexual desire then a woman being modest? I'm not trying to offend you - I'm seriously just asking a question I think is legitimate in the framework of greater understanding.
i have never misrepresented myself on this forum. I have only denied a representation - and that's a big difference. I never pretended to be anything I'm not. So let's get that straight cowboy... I'm speaking of the culture of this guy and his followers - no one else. And it seems pretty clear that they have a very patricial view of women. Yes, they are not the only ones. But we're not talking about hicks in Alabama right now, we're talking about this incident. Don't use the same defense as the Chinese posters do....just because other people are doing it too doesn't mean it's ok and we shouldn't criticize it.
Just to be clear this is Australia. I would be suprised if anybody who visits this BBS knows what qualifies as a 'deportable offense' in Australia. I do think that as a person who gets up and speaks in front of a religious community and where people (presumably) respect what he says, it is reasonable to consider what effect his comments might have on his followers. In other words I would consider this more significant than what some random guy in his mosque had to say. When Jerry Faldwell says something moronic, like "god is punishing the people of New Orleans" it is more than just one man's opinion because all of his moronic followers take it as 'gospel truth'.
Unless Muslims go and start raping scantily clad women and they can definitively link that to this man's speak, it's not a deportable offense. In fact, his comments should be protected under free speech....but not sure what the laws are there.
He can take responsibility for his own actions/words, no one else should. It's ironic that this point is even debatable in a culture like ours that emphasizes individualism and individual responsibility. If it's voluntarily done, that's fine. However, trying to 'paint' a group of people into a corner for what one man said is a standard no community or ethnic/religious group has to meet, so there has to be some agenda involved here; it's pretty transparent. As for 'unsavory stereotypes', those are the responsibility of those who hold these ignorant views, not the target of such ignorance. In this case, Aussie women don't have to exhibit that they're not a bunch of 'whores' just to prove the sheikh wrong. That's a very bad analogy. Being a Republican is nothing like being an everyday Muslim, and the two can hardly be compared/contrasted. He doesn't need to apologize, he might truly believe what he said, which he has a right to -- unless unpopular speech has been banned in Australia, I am unaware of what law he has broken. The absolute vast majority of Muslims around the world don't wear a 'burka'. It would help you to get your facts straight before you argue this point or any other. It also further goes to disprove your silly notion that there is a united 'Muslim culture'. LOL! You're quiet entertaining. It has to do with both, or one of the two, depending entirely on the individual you're addressing. Some women are forced to wear it or are accustomed to it by societal norms. Other women make a conscious decision to wear it as a form of 'modesty'. Now I have a question for you: Do you believe that women generally have a tendency to want to 'dress down' or have their thong lines in plain sight for everyone to see? How is 'covering up' any more or less 'offensive' than 'dressing down'? It's ironic how some in the West would decry having women forced to wear something in the name of equality only to turn around and 'ban' women from wearing something else. It's supposed to be a matter of personal choice in the more 'enlightened' societies. However, that is not always the case... You hardly offend me, you're giving yourself too much credit there.
I vaguely remember your majesty taking a long haitus and coming back to the D&D with entirely different views on a number of topics/issues. When asked, you stated that you were merely arguing the 'other side' in your former life hoping that someone would prove you wrong. That's what you had to say to a poster who couldn't help but wonder. So no, I guess that's not a 'misrepresentation' of your views. The only one we know so far who has espoused these views is this man, so I am unaware of other individuals present at the sermon who voiced their approval. Therefore, it might be prudent to address this man's opinion and not some of his imaginary 'followers' that you have determined to be in agreement with this man. I understand you have that tendency, but try to resist it... Not a defense, it's making sure the same standard/principle is applied across the board. I am not a big fan of hypocrites, and tend to call out those I suspect of hypocrisy/double-standard. Just making sure that you, myself, and others are 'consistent'...I would welcome your assistance in trying to keep the D&D honest.
It's a sensitive issue in Australia particularly Sydney. There was a government/police report where a certain minority group was shown to be the predominant offenders of rape in Sydney. The media were requested by the state govt to keep quiet about this for obvious reasons but a gang (consisting of that particular minority group) went around targetting and pack raping white women. Also this guy has been trying to make a name for himself. Not too long ago he tried to claim he was responsible for the release of an Australian taken hostage in Iraq. Otherwise if there hadn't been the recent history this would've been reported more as quaint than upsetting.
I have no idea what you are talking about.....paint who into a corner? Who should take responsibility for his words? Just him. I don't know what you're reading into...but be careful about putting a bunch of things into my mouth just because of your judgement that I am anti-Muslim or whatever. I think the Sheik should apologize - for comparing women to meat and blaming them - yes - that's no way for an "englightened" individual to act - and it doesn't matter where you are from or who you are. One can think what they want, but we can still demand an apology. And yes there are non-muslims like him, and when a high non-muslim person in society puts women down, we'll have an equally strong reaction. I think the larger question is this - and what you are trying to say shouldn't be the case: Does Islam encourage treating women as second-class citizens? Is Islam patrichial? Well Tiger - nearly every religion in the world is like this. Christianity not excluding. But American culture has progressed, due mostly to industrialization. Now - notice I said it was a cultural difference and not a religious one? Did you get that? I wasn't stereotyping Muslims, I was saying the Sheik comes from a culture like that. THat culture can exist in many places....ghettos, rural areas...and yes, Eygpt. But don't take pride in that his views are shared by other cultures - that doesn't make it ok. ummmm, analogy isn't about direct comparison or contrasting....hate to break that to you. An analogy means two sets having the same relationship. So you can say lightbulb is to lamp as speaker is to radio. That doesn't mean you are comparing and contrasting lightbulbs and speakers....just their relationships to something else. Being a lightbuld is very different from being a speaker - but the analogy is valid. Get it? He does if he wants to change the fact that a spiritual figure is espousing masogeny. This goes beyond unpopular speech. This isn't just offensive. It's like saying black people are inferior and need to cover themselves up. Somehow I think you are defending something you wouldn't tolerate if it came from another culture. Really - not all Muslims wear Burkas? How can that be? I thought to be Muslim you had to have a Burka for each and every day of the year! It would help if you didn't extrapolate my statements into mass generalizations - thank you very much. You are putting generalizations into my mouth...and frankly it's insulting....I've probably traveled to more muslim countries then you have. It's not about how women dress at all. You're missing the entire point. It's about that women CAN DRESS how they want and STILL SHOULD BE RESPECTED! Now, that doesn't mean women should go to Islamic countries and take their clothes off and show their necks and bellies and disrespect the culture. But in Austrailia - they can. What's offensive about what's going on in other societies is that women ARE FORCED to dress a certain way or face PUNISHMENT. Big difference. You hardly offend me, you're giving yourself too much credit there. [/QUOTE]
His remarks are insensitive and sexist. But I don't think they will incite rape. THe problem isn't what he says - it's that he thinks this way, and there are other Muslims who share this belief and willing to act on it. Where does this line of thinking come from? Is it cultural or religious, or something that all men share. I don't think it's the latter. SO the question becomes, why did Muslim men commit this act is Austrailia and not other groups?
Anyone with half a brain ould ignore these clown. what it will do is incite the biggot which are certianly the minority in australia. unhelpfull comments in a time where copperation and understanding is needed.
