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Shawcross: For Cambodia, read Iraq

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Mar 5, 2007.

  1. basso

    basso Member
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    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article1464476.ece

    [rquoter]Remember: for Cambodia, read Iraq
    William Shawcrosson

    The Killing Fields illustrates brilliantly part of the long disaster that has been Cambodia over recent decades. It is a compelling film that follows the story of a young Cambodian, Dith Pran, who worked for the New York Times reporter Sidney Schanberg in Cambodia during the brutal five-year war that resulted in the communist Khmer Rouge victory in April 1975.

    At that moment all the foreigners and their Cambodian friends took refuge in the French Embassy, hoping for safe passage out of the country. They had not reckoned with the horrific total revolution that the communists planned to impose. They demanded that all the Cambodians, including Pran, surrender, while the foreigners were trucked out of the country. In tears, the foreigners, including Schanberg, let their friends go. Many were murdered at once as “Western agents”.

    For the next three and a half years Pran had to conceal his past as he worked in the fields. The communists under Pol Pot shut Cambodia off and imposed one of the most vicious totalitarian regimes of the 20th century. Up to two million of the seven million people died, either murdered by the Khmer Rouge or from starvation and disease as a result of the draconian agrarian policies they imposed. Pran survived.

    At the end of 1975 I went to the Thai-Cambodian border to talk to refugees. Their horrific stories of people with glasses being killed as “intellectuals” and of “bourgeois” babies being beaten to death against trees were being dismissed as CIA propaganda by the antiAmerican Western Left, but it seemed obvious to me that they were true. I wanted to discover how the Khmer Rouge had grown and come to power; I wrote a book called Sideshow, which was very critical of the way in which the United States had brought war to Cambodia while trying to extricate itself from Vietnam.

    But horror had engulfed all of Indo-China as a result of the US defeat in 1975. In Vietnam and Laos there was no vast mass murder but the communists created cruel gulags and, from Vietnam in particular, millions of people fled, mostly by boat and mostly to the US. Given the catastrophe of the communist victories, I have always thought that those like myself who were opposed to the American efforts in Indochina should be very humble. I also think it wrong to dismiss the US efforts there as sheer disaster. Lee Kuan Yew, the former longtime Prime Minister of Singapore, has a subtler view. He argues that, although America lost in IndoChina in 1975, the fact that it was there so long meant that other SouthEast Asian countries had time to build up their economies to relieve the poverty of their peasants and thus resist communist encroachment — which they probably could not have done had IndoChina gone communist in the 1960s.

    That long view seems to me to be the one that has to be applied to Iraq. I still believe the overthrow of Saddam Hussein was the correct thing to do — and it was something only the United States could have done. For all the horrors that extremist Sunnis and Shias are inflicting on each other today, the US rid the world of the Pol Pot of the Middle East. So long as the vile Saddam family regime remained in power there was no hope of progress in the region. There is still hope — if we do not abandon the Iraqi people.

    In Indo-China the majority of Western journalists (including myself) believed that the war could not or should not be won. Similarly today, for too many pundits hatred (and it really is that) of Bush and Blair dominates perceptions. Armchair editorialists love to dismiss the US effort in terms of Abu Ghraib or Haditha. They were not typical moments. Evidence of the courage and commitment of ordinary US soldiers is inadequately covered by many papers, as is the courage of millions of ordinary Iraqis.

    There are encouraging signs — the Iraqi military is becoming ever more competent; Sunni tribal leaders seem increasingly angry with al-Qaeda brutalities; parliament is discussing contentious legislation on dividing oil and gas revenues fairly between different parts of the country; the dinar is still strong, indicating confidence; most Iraqis still seem to desire a united country.

    Of course huge mistakes have been made. We should lament and criticise them but not dismiss the underlying effort. President Bush’s new strategy (and probably his last throw) is to “surge” thousands of US troops into Baghdad. Rather than abusing him we should all be hoping that it is not too little too late.

    The consequences of an American defeat in Iraq would be even worse than in IndoChina. As the al-Qaeda leader in Iraq, Musab al-Zarqawi, said before he was killed by a US air strike: “The shedding of Muslim blood is allowed in order to disrupt the greater evil of disrupting jihad.”

    If Iraq collapses, such nihilist killing will spread far wider. As in Cambodia, bloody mass murder is the only alternative to what the US-led coalition is trying to achieve. Thanks to the sacrifice of young American and British soldiers, and to the courage of millions of ordinary Iraqis, the country can still have a better future — if we remain committed. Remember 1975.

    William Shawcross is the author of Sideshow: Kissinger, Nixon and the Destruction of Cambodia, and Allies: The US, Britain, Europe and the War in Iraq[/rquoter]
     
  2. jo mama

    jo mama Member

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    jesus basso, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

    you have stated multiple times that we are not allowed to compare iraq to vietnam. yet we have this thread. you have also compared iraq to WWII.

    what is your major malfunction son?
     
  3. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    Vietnam isn't Cambodia so it's all good
     
  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    If only Henry Kissinger hadn't been so restrained by the anti war lobby millions wouldn't have died. Of course millions of others would have died in their place, but you get the idea.

    Again, great analogy, if you don't know anything about history or current events.
     
  5. FranchiseBlade

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    basso, why do you keep talking about this.

    The U.S. was never interested in stopping the killing fields. They never once stated an interest in using our forces in Vietnam to stop it. They didn't attempt to stop it by deed.

    It was the enemies of the U.S. in the Vietnam war who eventually did invade and put an end to it. Enemies who of the U.S. who might have been able to stop it sooner had they not been fighting the U.S.

    It is far more likely that the U.S. staying in Vietnam as long as it did prolonged the killing. Maybe there is a lesson to be learned by the comparison after all.
     
  6. basso

    basso Member
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    it must take great effort to continue to write such tripe, while remaining so completely clueless as to actual events. the last US troops left vietnam on April 30, 1975. this coincided almost exactly w/ pol pot's victory over lon nol's cambodian government, a governement which was completely propped up by the US and south vietnam.

    how was the US supposed to stop the genocide in cambodia when they had no troops in the theater? how can you write that the presence of US troops exacerbated the killing when in fact it started only after we left?

    and the NVA did not invade until 1979, again, four years after we left.
     
  7. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    You just don't understand anything about that region or that era, or the Cold War at all it seems. Your alternative versions of history and your assessments of cause and effect are so unlikely and warped that it is not even worth speculating about.
     
  8. basso

    basso Member
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    if there's a factual inaccuracy to my post, put up or shut up.
     
  9. Kam

    Kam Member

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    interesting topic.

    i'll have to give my take on this later after i speak to my mother.
     
  10. FranchiseBlade

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    That is exactly my point. The U.S. didn't express a desire to stop the genocide.

    I can write that the U.S. division and destruction of Vietnam put it into a state of disrepair and damage that the NVA wasn't able to inade sooner quite possibly because they were recooping after a costly war.

    Do you think years of fighting the U.S. army didn't take a toll on their forces?

    I'm not sure what your problem is, or how what I am saying defies history.

    You are the ones saying we should have stayed in Vietnam because of what Pol Pot did in Cambodia. It was the North Vietnamese who invaded to stop Pol Pot. They might not have even been in charge yet if we had insisted on staying in Vietnam.
     
  11. rimbaud

    rimbaud Member
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    A brief intro for anyone interested, from PBS:

    Link.
     
  12. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    I keep expecting basso to argue that we should have stayed in Tripoli from 1805 on so Gaddafi would have never seized power. (Stupid Thomas Jefferson!)
     
  13. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    The inaccuracy is the 1,000,000,000+ assumptions and logical leaps you are incorporating in your conclusion about the people, places, and things involved.

    You have posted on this subject a ton and never addressed them. The "khmer rouge came on the scene because and only because the US left vietnam because Jane Fonda told them too" would get you an F in any undergraduate history class. Yet that is what you are telling us....and that is probably the least incredible assumption you are making.
     
  14. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    Thank you for this information. The problem with saying that if the US had remained in Indo-China the Killing Fields wouldn't have happened is that it ignores the role that the US played in creating them. Its pure speculation that is difficult to support in regard to the role that the US played in leading to the conditions that helped the Khmer Rouge to take power.
     
  15. basso

    basso Member
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    you'd of course have a point, if any of your assertions bore a resemblance to my point. but then, they don't.
     

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