1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Sengun/FVV-centric offense won't survive long term

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Mathloom, Jan 4, 2024.

?

What should we do with the offense?

  1. Don't change anything

    45.8%
  2. Cut down FVV's 2PT shots and spread the wealth

    32.7%
  3. Other

    21.5%
  1. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    89,322
    Likes Received:
    43,001
    Folks want Jalen Green to unlearn bad habits during the Silas era, well, FVV has habits too, they are not bad but he cannot change 7 years of his career.....

    The thing he had to learn was playmaking ...
     
  2. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    67,375
    Likes Received:
    45,352
    FVV has had a massive positive impact on the Rockets, to a large extent because he simply GIVES ALPI THE DAMN BALL.

    KPJ and Jalen did barely do that, and the coach then did not hold them accountable, or even encouraged them to play like that.

    It's really as simple as that.
     
    kokozo and T for 3 like this.
  3. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    18,248
    Likes Received:
    18,181
    Yeah, it's very clear. There are 0 SG's on the roster who can score inside the 2PT line better than FVV according to you. So who do we blame for that, the person who built the roster or the coach? Because when it's one guy you can blame one guy you know, like Jalen. But when FVV is shooting 40.5% on layups and you believe there's no scorer who can do better that here other than Sengun, that sounds like a systemic problem.

    Rookies score better than that at the rim. I don't think you QUITE understand how bad FVV is there. I'll make it easy: remember when you were so mad at Jalen for making 50% of his layups and only getting to the line 5 times in the process? That's the Robbie that knows what's up and understands the minimum required from your primary guy going to the basket. It has to be better than that.

    What I don't understand is why we don't just let Cam create 2 more shots now that his feet are wet? Will you be unhappy if FVV takes 2 fewer shots in the arc, improves his TS%, improves his assists, maintains everything else and someone else converted those shots at better than 40.5% at the rim?
     
  4. a time to chill

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,926
    Likes Received:
    5,430
    That stat isn't accurate. Per NBA.com stats:

    FVV: Restricted Area (42.9%), Paint Non-RA (37.3%), Midrange (45.6%)
    Jalen Green: Restricted Area (56.1%), Paint Non-RA (36.5%), Midrange (31.9%)

    The numbers show that FVV is better in the midrange than Jalen Green.
     
    Corrosion, T for 3, apollo33 and 2 others like this.
  5. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    89,322
    Likes Received:
    43,001
    Blimey, then I am not sure why it was so hard to give Scottie Barnes the ball, I guess he has 40 million reasons to do it here.....
     
  6. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    67,375
    Likes Received:
    45,352
    Pretty sure he gave it to him plenty, no idea what went on in the locker room there.
     
  7. T for 3

    T for 3 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    5,759
    Likes Received:
    7,994
    I didn’t walk anything back or move any goal posts.

    The point of your post was that Sengun Fvv (Sengun Centric ) can’t work. I used Denver AS AN EXAMPLE that it can.

    You responded with one stat about Jamal Murray.

    I said ok so FVv isn’t quite Jamal Murray but he is similar, and the Denver model is proven to work.

    So where in gods name was any goal post movement there?
     
    AroundTheWorld likes this.
  8. meh

    meh Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    15,368
    Likes Received:
    2,241
    I feel one component you're missing is the fact that on every possession, someone has to take a shot. And the problem is that if Sengun isn't getting a good one, who else can create? Jabari/Tari/Tate/Uncle Jeff/Holiday are all role players on offense. Now, IMO Jabari honestly should be aiming for more than that, but he isn't really trying to be aggressive on most nights. Brooks can be high usage but clearly he is trying to be mostly a role player. So really when Sengun isn't around, there's only FVV and Jalen Green willing to create. And as you stated both of them suck at it! And while Amen and Cam both have potential, neither shoots well enough to be carrying any offensive load at this point.

    Yes, we can all agree that the Rockets offense will be better if FVV shoots less. But that is predicated on the Rockets having a better offensive creator option. Someone like a Lillard or a Booker. But we don't have that person, and that's a personnel issue not a coaching issue.
     
  9. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    18,248
    Likes Received:
    18,181
    In practice, I imagine the way this would go is that on nights when opponents are stifling FVV/Sengun better than usual, we force a favorable switch for one of our young guards and let them attack with force or if they have daylight then take the 3 (other than Amen). We let Cam or Amen or Jalen or Jabari do this for a few games. If it works great. If not, on to the next prospect until we've tried all 4. FVV can easily discern when teams are chasing him off the line. He can also drive and kick after he's decided to go for it but sees that the rim is not wide open.

    That's the future there's no way around it. It's going to happen at some point this season. I can't think of a better time than when all of Green, Amen and Cam are having a good little mini streak. Jabari had a great streak recently and we moved away from him too easily.
     
    BamBam likes this.
  10. MrButtocks

    MrButtocks Contributing Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2005
    Messages:
    7,241
    Likes Received:
    5,130
    If Cam, Amen, and Jalen want shots at the rim they are free to do so. The fact that Jalen has 85 shots at the rim, Jabari has 69, Brooks has 56, and FVV has 50 means the shot selection is already there. No one has said FVV is a good finisher. That isn't the argument. The argument is that you can't just take those rim attempts and give them to someone else. He can kick out for the three more or he can force the pass to Sengun more on the PNR. But he cannot get Jalen or Jabari at the rim more when we're targeting Sengun in the middle.

    On a broader point. If you want the ball out of FVV and Sengun's hands as much, find better decision makers. If you want the pretty prime Spurs offense you need to find your Parker, Ginobili, Duncan, Diaw, and Kawhi. The ball finds its way into the hands of those who can make plays. Once those guys retired Pop suddenly couldn't coach offense anymore. Udoka coached offense just fine in Boston with multiple scorers and playmakers, we simply don't have that luxury here. Forcing shots onto players not ready to make the leap isn't development. If that were the case Jalen would be an all star by now.
     
    #110 MrButtocks, Jan 4, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2024
  11. T for 3

    T for 3 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    5,759
    Likes Received:
    7,994
    This is all just a very thinly disguised “I want to be right about Jalen Green” thread. But I couldn’t get through his other incoherent essays on Jalen Greens progression either.
     
    Corrosion, gumbleton3, CXbby and 3 others like this.
  12. apollo33

    apollo33 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    20,386
    Likes Received:
    16,554
    Spamming FVV Sengun PnR is not a Denver Jokic offense. I don't know where you get that from. Denvers offense looks nothing like ours with the exception of Sengun being a great player
     
    tagedieb likes this.
  13. MrButtocks

    MrButtocks Contributing Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2005
    Messages:
    7,241
    Likes Received:
    5,130
    FVV shot 49% on layups the past two seasons and 45+ every year of his career. This season appears to be an outlier.
     
    CXbby and T for 3 like this.
  14. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2011
    Messages:
    28,383
    Likes Received:
    43,512
    Seeing the 13.5 FGA per 36, 20% USG rate, 8.6 assists 1.8 turnovers player

    as a problem on offense is bad propaganda
     
    AroundTheWorld, CXbby and T for 3 like this.
  15. T for 3

    T for 3 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    5,759
    Likes Received:
    7,994
    So, let me make sure I have this right...are you are saying:

    1. That the Murray-Jokic PNR isn't the staple of Denver offense?
    2. The way FVV and Sengun manipulate defenses with the PNR isn't simmilar to the way Jokic and Murray do it?
     
  16. fattz

    fattz Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    5,370
    Likes Received:
    5,095
    It will evolve over time. I would like to see Smith more but off of movement.
     
  17. jim1961

    jim1961 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,221
    Likes Received:
    13,098
    Pure blasphemy!
    Alperenites Unite!
     
  18. CXbby

    CXbby Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2002
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    10,717
    Thinly disguised “I’ve spent the last two years pumping up Jalen Green and now that he is failing I’m going to blame Fvv and the coach” thread.

    Let’s get a few things straight

    1. Fred shoots 45% on shots in the mid range. He does not “suck at 2 point shots”, 45% is very good for mid range and that’s a 2 point shot. He does suck at finishing at the rim, but needs to still drive to open up the rest of his game. Fred is scoring at 56.4% TS overall, which is very good considering he is only being assisted on 41% of his overall shots, meaning he has to create the majority of his own shots.

    2. Your contention is that the Rockets offense being mediocre has to do with Ime’s coaching, let’s check on the individual players. Fred is efficient considering how much he has to create. Sengun is supremely efficient. Jabari and Brooks are both near 60% ts as role players. I wonder who it is dragging down the efficiency of the starting lineup?? Which goes back to why this thread was started and why the blame is put on everyone else except this person in question.

    Our offense sure would be a lot better if we had a dynamic and efficient shooting guard who could take pressure off of Fvv and Sengun! Too bad we don’t have that.
     
    Corrosion, gumbleton3 and robbie380 like this.
  19. CXbby

    CXbby Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2002
    Messages:
    8,710
    Likes Received:
    10,717
    Chapter 7: Green demise - it’s everyone else’s fault
     
  20. Yetti

    Yetti Contributing Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    9,567
    Likes Received:
    508
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now