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Sengun/FVV-centric offense won't survive long term

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Mathloom, Jan 4, 2024.

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What should we do with the offense?

  1. Don't change anything

    45.8%
  2. Cut down FVV's 2PT shots and spread the wealth

    32.7%
  3. Other

    21.5%
  1. VoR

    VoR Member

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    All you MF like to do is b****. Enjoy the wins, jackass.
     
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  2. DominantBig

    DominantBig Member

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    My guess, this is the skeleton and as the team gets comfortable they expand the offense. The off ball cutting overall has been horrible, lack of consistent shooting has hurt. You can run this as the main offense and expand the options. That much is clear.
     
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  3. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    Damn why are you mad bro? I love the season so far. I'm just talking about the future. Maybe we can love the team and suggest a change?
     
    #43 Mathloom, Jan 4, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2024
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  4. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    Of course they're not ready. How should we get them ready if they're doing well in practice?
     
  5. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    I don't want to pile on, but I expected Jalen to be more efficient offensively this season with the offense moving away from KPJ to FVV and Sengun. When Jalen is good, the Sengun/FVV centric offense looks great. When he's bad, FVV and Sengun are the only things keeping the offense afloat except the rare times when Jabari or Brooks have a great game. I agree that the FVV/Sengun offense can work (at least while FVV is a Rocket) if they get better offensive play around them.
     
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  6. apollo33

    apollo33 Member

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    FVV only does this because Jalen is a terrible ball handler when he takes dribbles in traffic. Jalen runs the same play as FVV with Sengun but he can't really keep his dribble alive as well. They are both terrible finishers around the rim in the PnR, but there's currently no other solutions.
     
  7. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    This is true, a lot of the reason FVV has taken the load on is Jalen's struggles. However, Jabari was on fire and we went away from him.

    If Jalen/Jabari are not highly efficient to start the game, he tends to go to himself. He doesn't not judge himself as harshly as he does the other 2. He often starts poorly and shoots his way out of it.

    I think Udoka will take care of this sooner rather than later. He had no options in the first 30 games. Things are going to change with the young scorers, we're reaching that part of the schedule where young players start to master the offense/defense.
     
  8. MrButtocks

    MrButtocks Contributing Member

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    I respect FVV and what he's done for this team. However, he's maxed out on talent. The irony is that the offense wasn't supposed to revolve around him. Fred wasn't expected to be our sole floor general and playmaker. The whole point of signing him over Harden was so that others, Jalen was named specifically, could make the leap.

    Rockets’ Ime Udoka Explains Signing Fred VanVleet Over Pursuing James Harden - Sports Illustrated

    Believe me, Ime is open to the youngsters taking the ball out of Fred's hands. That was the plan from day one.
     
  9. REEKO_HTOWN

    REEKO_HTOWN I'm Rich Biiiiaaatch!

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    It’s not FVV fault that Green has not materialized as the shooter he was supposed to be.

    Fred does what Udoka asks him to do and that is be aggressive. Same as Sengun and Brooks. You can’t be fearless on the court.
     
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  10. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Jalen's passes (when they even come) are also often ever so slightly "off", which then requires gathering the ball. Can often not be converted immediately. FVV and Sengun are much better passers.
     
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  11. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    Within the confines of an offense that works and when that offense isn't being used. Jalen gets plenty of opportunity. Amen and Cam have a long way to go. I think Cam would work well around Sengun and FVV. Long term something will need to be done about replacing FVV, but I see no reason to stop using him as much now as that would hurt Sengun's development.
     
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  12. ipaman

    ipaman Contributing Member

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    Long post when you could have just said Jalen has been disappointing. Or to put another way, "it was supposed to be Jalen!"

    That said, Jalen and the Rox still have time. He's shown the potential to be that guy but so far it's inefficient and inconsistent.
     
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  13. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    But making off ball shots is not correlated to being able to make plays. So why would the test be to see if they can catch and shoot or cut within the confines of a FVV-Sengun offense? Nor can we judge them by what they do end of clock when one of Sengun/FVV pass off to them. We have to start by letting them generate offense against 2nd units.

    Once they have done well in practice, the next step is to see if they can score in the NBA. Obviously we don't know if they've done well, but I suspect Ime wouldn't be giving them minutes simultaneously if they weren't impressing him in practice.

    I understand where you're coming from, and it's valid for what we've been through so far, but in general rookies and sophomores who can score should be ready to score against 2nd units by midway into the season. I haven't been one of those guys campaigning for Cam to get more minutes all season. I just started doing that a few days ago after he paid his dues on the bench and in g league and in garbage time. We're right there.
     
  14. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    Again, nothing to do with Jalen. There are 4 players who can take those shots, and I would want the one producing the best plays to get those shots even if it's not Jalen.

    FVV's 2PT% is really bad. Much worse than Jalen. FVV is one of the worst among rotation players in the NBA as far as scoring inside the line. It's not crazy that a highly touted rookie can be better than him there, in fact there are already several rookies doing it better than him this season.

    Also, I would LOVE for this to be the solution but you and me both know we didn't tear down this franchise to go to war with FVV as our second option. That kind of team was available to us without rebuilding at all.
     
  15. VoR

    VoR Member

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    The only changes we need this year are for Jalen to become more consistent, Brooks to stay healthy, a better back up big or a better performance from Landale and more time for Whtimore and Thompson to develop. After the 2024 season we will replace FVV with Maxey. The end.
     
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  16. AlperenSengun

    AlperenSengun Member

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    I think your initial diagnosis is wrong! Our (sengun-fvv centric) offense does not suck, at all. Just look at 5 man line-ups. Our starting line-up stands at +7.3. The only teams with better net rating are teams with a number of established stars. It is amazing that we are in that group with no established star, while the other teams have two or three of them, contender type team. I know net rating is not just offensive rating. If you look at offensive rating, our starting 5 is in the middle of the pack, ranks 17th out of the 40 5s that played 100 minutes or more. I don't think you can call it an offense that sucks.

    https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced

    Yet, the offense can certainly improve in some areas

    1) Green improving as a player. And he is improving. We are seeing more of green/sengun game, he has better looks but he cannot make shots and he is not good at getting to the rim. Our offense looks much better at times he does these.
    2) Off ball movement. Both as cutters and outside shooters moving when sengun/fvv game is played

    I am ready to give Ime a lot of time for improvements. I don't get the impression that he is not trusting youth, at least just yet, but I see that he takes his time and is not in a hurry.

    For the offensive talent this team has, I think they are doing quite well and progress will come as time goes on mostly through player development naturally. There are certain limits to FVV's game and with a not very good shooting team with 3 players under 21 and considering that I think we are generally okay.
     
  17. ipaman

    ipaman Contributing Member

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    Yea I'm not buying your objectiveness here. We could have had Harden but Ime and the team said "no" we like the growth potential of young guards in KPJ/Jalen. That hasn't worked out and it's because we don't have KPJ and Jalen has performed below expectations. Period.

    I would add, Fred, Dillon, and the rest of the young players have performed ABOVE expectations. Maybe add Landale as a disappointment but that was an emergency signing after failing to land Lopez.
     
  18. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    This is a childish position, I'm sorry. I don't know why we wouldn't improve something that can be improved just because you're afraid it might break.

    FVV is not going through a slump, he has always been bad at this part of the game and there's nothing wrong with that. We're leaning on him because we have to. As someone else posted, even the team's plan was for FVV to not shoot so much, and to get more shots for young guys. Just because Jalen is slumping doesn't mean we gave to give up on anyone else doing it for the rest of the year. It's a really low bar to clear, so much so that it's conceivable a rookie would clear it.

    Thank god Ime is not a cupcake about this stuff. He doesn't mind telling people to cut out the bad stuff and do more of the good stuff. For some reason you're not interested in improving, and so I understand why this conversation would be frustrating for you.
     
  19. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    The Rockets should try things here.There are plenty of opportunity to develop guys without using FVV/Sengun less. For the most part, FVV is going to be replaced and every other Rocket that isn't his replacement is going to need to be developed to work around Sengun and FVV's replacement. There is no one close to replacing FVV at the moment.
     
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  20. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    My objectiveness is not required so I don't care if you believe it or not, you can insert any young player into that spot you like.
     

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