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Scheme or players?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by SamFisher, Apr 23, 2003.

  1. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    With all the speculation about Brand, Payton, etc., and wholesale Rox personnel changes, I can't help but think that the players aren't the main part of the problem. Then I read the article below, and I'm even more sure of it. As I've said earlier today, the Rockets could have Dr. J, Oscar robertson, and Wes Unseld on the floor with Yao and Stevie at the same time, but it's not going to make a damn bit of difference if the Rockets are still running the "star-based" (4 men watch 1 man dribble) offense that Rudy and the staff built around Hakeem, et al.

    Anyway, my question is now thus; If you had to chose, magically, between changing the Rockets "scheme", whatever that means, to something more Kings-like; or if instead, you could have your pick of Brand, MIller, or any other available player (available: i.e., Shaq, Kobe, Tracy, are not available). Which would you choose?

    I would almost certainly choose the former. Reading this article absolutely pained me with regard to what might have been.

    SPORTS OF THE TIMES
    Ensembles Provide Resiliency
    By SELENA ROBERTS


    SACRAMENTO

    THE moment arrives for Allen Iverson or Tracy McGrady - or any superstar hired as the kickstand for his franchise - when he'll wave teammates to the side with the same sweeping motion reserved for picnic gnats.

    Clear out, it's iso time. By design, the isolation play is about the star, his defender and a camera ready to capture the instant he turns an opponent into a highlight casualty with a crossover move built to humiliate.


    But what happens when the star breaks down before the defender does, or when his body breaks down as a season slips away? Vince Carter happens.

    For years, many N.B.A. teams have been suckered into a star system that produces personnel decisions based on pleasing the Man. For a decade, the Knicks never made a move without asking, Can this guy give up his ego and shot attempts to Patrick Ewing?

    Sometimes, revolutions start in remote places. Sometimes, a retro idea is hatched in an outpost. Welcome to Sacramento, home of innovative thinking, land of basketball purists, hotbed of ensemble casting.

    From the mind of the team's operations guru, Geoff Petrie, using the backdoor trickery of a free-flowing offense, under the floor guidance of Coach Rick Adelman, the Kings have a team built for survival, constructed like a home on a flood plain, with sturdy pillars equally distributed, able to withstand erosion.

    "The team has not only been able to survive," Petrie said in an interview yesterday, "but they've been able to be very good."

    So what if Chris Webber's lower lumbar seized up early in the second quarter of Game 2 Monday night against the Utah Jazz? The Kings turned a 27-22 lead into a gaudy 49-30 advantage without him on the way to a 2-0 series edge.

    "Doesn't make a difference who is playing," Jazz Coach Jerry Sloan said after his team's 108-95 loss. Webber's absence for the rest of the game didn't change a system based on versatile players who can cut diagonals on the court, pass blindfolded and finish on the fast break. All this without a point guard who has to look at the coach for a play call, while smashing grapes with the ball as he slowly walks it up the court.

    "There is freedom, but there is not anarchy," Petrie said. "There is the ability for the team to get a basket out of the structure and not be dependent on my battleship versus your battleship."

    This doesn't mean the $100 million superstar will become obsolete as other teams like the Nets and the Timberwolves begin to imitate the Kings' style and balance. Overpaid, yes, but not without value. (What would the league do without marketing tools?)

    No doubt, the Kings will need Webber's presence if they are to leap over the Lakers or anyone else for a title. But without Webber, Sacramento can function on the beauty of fundamentals, as in every time center Vlade Divac reveals a slick dribble handoff that results in an open jumper.

    It is easy to understand why the Kings were 10-5 without Webber this season, 8-2 without Peja Stojakovic and 21-6 without Mike Bibby. They trust each other more than they rely on the fickle talent of a celebrity player.

    Would the Sixers have won Game 1 against the Hornets without Iverson's 55 points? Didn't the Magic need all of McGrady's 43 points to take Game 1 in Detroit? The trouble with superhumans is the human part.

    Such vulnerability is unnecessary - if a team knows where to look for its co-stars. In December, the Kings found Jim Jackson hanging out at home. As the founding member of Dallas's Three J's, along with Jason Kidd and Jamal Mashburn, Jackson was placed in the outcast section of free agency as a player unjustly branded with a bad attitude. While many coaches have adored Jackson along his many stops, not every powerful one has.

    "Politics has worked against my career," Jackson said before scoring 11 points off the bench Monday night. "It goes back to Don Nelson. He never coached me, never spent time with me in Dallas, but he formulated an opinion about me and he went with it. A reputable coach like that says things and people are going to listen; they're going to take it as the gospel."

    Independent thinkers, the Kings ignored Jackson's reputation, knowing any misfit that has landed in Sacramento over the past five years has found comfort in an accepting locker room filled with international players, journeymen and free spirits.

    "It comes back to Chris and Peja and Vlade," Petrie said. "Every new person we've brought in has been embraced in the environment they've created."

    Everyone is valued like a star in a system that doesn't have to rely on individuals. Everyone has a chance to score in an offense that isn't based on the made-for-TV drama of an iso play.

    It's not that Webber never waves for a clear out, it's that he doesn't have to bear that burden. It's not that Webber won't be welcomed back from his bad back by Game 3, it's that it won't break the team if he isn't ready. This is limited liability by expert design.

    "This idea that you've got players who have to be the Man is true," Petrie said. "But there are a lot of different ways to be the Man."

    The Kings' way is the best way.
     
  2. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

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    Look at the Bulls' record with Tim Floyd, or the Mavericks' record with Jim Cleamons. Both of those teams ran the mighty Triangle offense. Heck, Chicago may still be running it, I don't know.

    Nobody complained about the Hakeem offense when the Rockets were winning.
     
  3. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Zones were illlegal when the Hakeem offense was working though, notwithstanding the sonics, who played one anyway and destroyed the Spokes-and-wheel offense.

    Yes, the bulls did run a triangle. And the guys running it were total chumps. You can't compare the talent level on the late 90's bulls to this year's rockets. That's absurd.
     
  4. KeepJuaquin

    KeepJuaquin Member

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    Yes. I really would wish that we can get another star...

    But probably not.

    So the best thing to do is actually create an offensive system with different plays...

    We need to actually pass the ball.

    We are like last in assists.

    Last in shooting.

    Very stagnant offense.

    Too bad. We have incompetent backups...like Moochie Norris.
     
  5. verse

    verse Member

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    you might as well have title this "coach or players", because that's really what it comes down to. and since rudy has buck naked pictures of les alexander with turbo, he's not leaving. so, we'll go get more players, just to complain about them once they get here and stop moving on the floor.
     
  6. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

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    They 'destroyed' it in '96, when Hakeem was already on the downside and the players couldn't hit shots. They certainly didn't destroy it in '93.

    I thought you were saying the 'system' was more important than the players. Wasn't the point of the article that the Kings are successful no matter who plays? Or are you saying that you have to have good players to win, no matter what 'system' you run? I don't ever recall a system winning a championship. Why don't more teams run the Kings' offense if that's all it is?
     
  7. verse

    verse Member

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    TheFreak:


    do you only see things in black or white?
     
  8. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Please go ahead and find for me where I, or the article, says that "System" is so important that it can work IN SPITE of having bad players. I never said that, you just assumed it. The general consensus among most Rockets fans is that they underacheived, i.e., that they should have done better, given the caliber of talent that they had, in other words, that they had good players, who for some reason did not win. Therefore, I think changing their POS offense is probably something that should be investigated.

    That was not the same problem as the 97, 98, or 99 Bulls, who simply didn't have any good players at all.

    Finally, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, but if you think the Sonics didn't have the Rox number back then, we must have been watching different games.

    I don't understand what your point is here. So houston should trade everybody and continue to run Iso's? I hope that's not what your saying, and I don't think it is. So go ahead and let us know what you would rather do (I did ask for opinions) rather than critically tilting at windmills.
     
  9. KeepJuaquin

    KeepJuaquin Member

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    Well the Rockets are pretty messed up.

    You can get the best players in the world and just iso all day. But that's not likely.

    And you can have a system. But of course...you have to have good players and good coaches.

    Like the Kings.

    Their offense is all motion and stuff. Of course...in order for it to be good...they need specific role players.

    But even their garbage time third string players know how to run the offense.

    Which is a good thing.

    The Rockets have better than average players...
    I think they could be even better with a real and consistent offensive system...and a little motivation...and babysitting.
     
  10. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

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    The article says, or at the very least implies, that the Kings can win with anybody because of their system. I'm not going to waste time pulling quotes from your own article.

    I flat out disagree with this and there are numerous facts, current as well as historical that cast doubt on this. I also disagree that this is the consensus among most Rocket fans. Most Rocket fans are not on this BBS.

    Exactly, having the players is more important than any 'system' that can be installed. A system makes little difference in winning.

    Did you not see Hakeem dominate Seattle in '93? Did you not see the Rockets almost win Game 7 in Seattle? Maybe we did see different games.

    My point is that without the players, you won't win, no matter what system is run. The reason the Rockets didn't win this year was that they didn't have the players to do it. The best players on the Rockets have less experience than EVERY team ahead of them. The Rockets were picked by everyone to be a bubble playoff team this year. Their hometown paper, who's supposed to be more optimistic with the hometown team, predicted their record on the nose. The Rockets and Suns have VERY similar talent levels, one of the only differences being that the Suns' best player is in his 7th year, not his 4th. Lastly, the Rockets had a playoff spot and a 5-game winning streak when their coach was lost for the season. My goal is for the Rockets to win, not to be 'fun to watch'. Oh.....and 'what I would do' is give these players the chance to improve.

    verse:

    The answer to your question is 'no'. ;)
     
  11. KeepJuaquin

    KeepJuaquin Member

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    Hmm...they did not underachieve!!!

    But...it was pretty disappointing.

    Hopefully next season, they can win the games against the easy teams.
     
  12. SmeggySmeg

    SmeggySmeg Member

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    Does Kenny T's play with the Sixers, place a fair degree of blame on the rockets system, everyone used to call him out for being a black hole and one dimensional, at the sixers, he is moving without the ball, passing, cutting, screening and find gaps amazingly well.
     
  13. KeepJuaquin

    KeepJuaquin Member

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    Hehe! Good example! Looked horrible here...well not horrible..but not great here. But then goes to 76ers...and is like averaging a double-double! Without all the touches and turnovers!
     
  14. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    A few things, most people were incredibly optimistic about this team coming in, and would have been more optimistic knowing that Yao would be so NBA-ready. I think the chron's prediction in particulary didn't factor in that Yao Ming would be able to go in and hang 30 and grab 15 boards by late November. (or the addition of posey, for that matter) I think if it did, you would have seen them predict a much better outcome.

    The Rockets biggest problem this year was repeatedly losing to teams that most of us, as well as pretty much everybody who follows basketball, regard as inferior. Example, the home loss to Miami, the loss in Cleveland, both losses to the Knicks, including that abysmal home loss, both early losses to the Clippers, the early loss to the Grizzlies, the loss to the Wizards, the blowout loss to the Hawks, the early loss to the Warriors, I think even a loss to Denver. And those are just the ones I can think of! Granted, you can't win them all. But hey, the rockets should have won at least half, if not all of those games, but didn't. They underacheived. I don't know any other way to describe it.

    Indeed, imagine if LA had said the same thing a few years ago after being swept in the playoffs again. They didn't change their players, they changed their system, brought in Phil, installed the triange. and look what happened. (No, steve and yao are not as good as shaq and kobe, but you have to start small). My point is that having Jamal Crawford come in to stand around and clang threes in case Yao gets double teamed is not going to solve anybody's problem

    And yeah, I saw hakeem dominate against the sonics, just like he dominated everybody else, I also saw them beat us more often than not in spite of such domination, by forcing turnovers and playing the passing lanes, and by frustrating Hakeem on both sides of the floor with sam perkins.
     
  15. tslee98

    tslee98 Member

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    If you're asking this question in the abstract, then mediocre players in a great scheme will generally be better than great players in a mediocre scheme. For verification, look at USA Basketball in the World Championships last summer.

    But it's a chicken and egg question. Which do you start with -- players or the scheme? Because the Rockets already have some amazing talent, I'd go after the final piece or two (Elton Brand, Bobby Jackson) then find a coach to develop a system to utilize these players' talents.

    Rudy T is not that coach, never was (don't forget his total inability to develop a scheme with Olajuwon, Barkley and Pippen/Drexler, albeit they were on the downsides of their careers). But if suffering through another awful season is the price to pay to have Yao, Brand, Posey, Francis and Jackson as my starting 5 (with a good coach to be determined later), then I'd do it in a heartbeat.
     
  16. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    But they still lost. They were never successful against the Sonics. They had to break up the team because Rudy couldn't coach through the Sonics and then they made themselves weak against the Jazz by bringing in a fat overpaid has been who couldn't play defense.
     
  17. Deuce

    Deuce Context & Nuance

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    No doubt! Last night I was specifically watching Thomas to see how he worked in the Philly offense. Thomas ran a ton of pick and rolls and pick and slips and got great passes for scores. He looks a heck of a lot better in Philly than here. In fact of ALL the points I saw scored by Thomas almost NONE of them were when he was isolated (like he normally did in Houston). They ALL were within the flow of the offense off of passes or offensive rebounds and put backs. Yet he scores 17 points and is active and grabs 15 rebounds etc.

    Look what Posey said in a recent Chronicle article, "Where I came from, it was all screens, curls, ball movement. Here, it's a lot different."
    This of course is in reference to him standing around on the 3pt line. What does that tell you?? I mean really, "where I came from was all screens curls and BALL MOVEMENT and here it is A LOT DIFFERENT"!?!?!? Nuff said!

    Clearly the Rockets needs SOME personnel changes but the SCHEME/SYSTEM whatever you want to call it CLEARLY needs to be changed.
    Passing, Moving without the ball on the weakside, Pick and rolls, fast breaks etc. This is what the team needs more of. I am not saying scrap ISO offense all together, it still has its place but only as part of the greater scheme of things offensively.

    Rudy has not adjusted to the zone defenses in the NBA. The zone tries to promote better ballmovement to find holes in the defense and the Rockets have not shown the patience to look for those holes.

    I am not saying fire Rudy. Rudy can stay as far as I am concerned. HOWEVER, he HAS to impliment more MOTION in his offense. That should be the #1 directive. If he does not adapt to this, then he should be bumped up stairs. As far as I am concerned, Rudy should be given the chance but all eyes will be on him.
     
  18. SmeggySmeg

    SmeggySmeg Member

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    Duece,

    if there is currently no/minimal motion in the offense, at Rudy's instruction then why do we need major player changes, aside from getting better defense allround, i would bet all the players are taught to cut, screen, pass, move without the ball in College and High school, surely these are not new skills, maybe Rudy should just use them in his offense.

    Smeg

    PS great post

    PPS I have been watching alot of Sixers games since Kenny got traded, the boy has skills.
     
  19. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

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    Let's destroy the myth that Kenny was so much more successful with the Sixers.

    Kenny with the Rockets:

    10 pts, 7 rebs

    With Philly:

    10 pts, 8.5 rebs

    FG% is 48 with Philly, 43 with Rockets. Minutes the same.

    Are people blaming the 1.5 rebound differential on the Rockets' system? The difference in FG% could have something to do with playing in the East, or the Rocket guards' inability to get him easy shots. At most here you have a few percentage points difference in FG%.

    They WERE successful when Hakeem and the team were in their prime in the only series they played each other. One bogus call that counted a Spurs bucket after the buzzer in '93 gave Seattle homecourt advantage over the Rockets. Take that away and the Rockets WIN the series.

    The 'couldn't coach through' crap is ridiculous and plain Rudy-hating. Seattle was a 64-win team in '96. Houston won 48 games. SEATTLE WAS BETTER. Since when is a 5 seed 48-win team losing to a 1 seed 64-win team a result of being outcoached.
     
  20. SmeggySmeg

    SmeggySmeg Member

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    maybe it's not just the numbers Freak but the way he is scoring and playing

    PS the April numbers for pts are about 14ppg i think
     

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