Link: http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/lawrence_mitch/1432925.html From the top, among the great centers, there's Russell and Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Among today's players, only Shaquille O'Neal has a chance to join those immortals, and Shaq has been doing everything in his power the last three years to put himself in that class. On the next tier, you've got Moses Malone and Olajuwon. Both were regular-season and Finals MVPs. Both won more than one rebounding title. Both were fixtures on 1st-team All-NBA teams. Go down another tier and that's where you'll find Patrick Ewing. Not a bad place, but not the one New York expected. -------------------- I agree with it. Back then, I would have lobbied for Dream being a member of the "elite with the elite," but with all these years to examine it, I think it's a fair description.
I can see it up to a point, but it overlooks something very important....Teammates. Russell, Chamberlain, Jabbar, and O'Neal all had much better secondary stars than Hakeem had, with the exception of Drexler for a little while, and Barkley for less, and those were injury plagued campaigns...Imagine if the Big three had stayed healthy, and won, say, two more rings. Where would Hakeem rank then? As it is, he is the only player to lead his team to a Championship without another All-Star level player ( rookie Cassell coming off the bench hardly qualifies) in the modern era, which, I suspect, gives us a glimpse into the greatness that could have been. Think about it...he played most of his career as a by-far Lone Star...The exceptions? Early on, when Ralph was healthy..result: Beat a star-laden Laker team and lose to another star laden Celtics team, both in their primes, while the Rox were very young. Fast forward, skip most of Hakeem's prime, and arrive at Drexler..result: Ring. Next, add Barkley..result..1/2 way through, even with the injuries, best record in the West, before the injuries really set in. Russell never had to do it alone...Chamberlain tried for a while, unlike Olajuwon couldn't do it, and only did when he had Star level teammates. Jabbar never had to do it alone. O'Neal only did anything with Penny and Kobe, recognized as amongst the better all around players at their respective times, and between the two, did nothing. It's hard to calculate the physical, mental, and emotional wear and tear of carrying a team by yourself, going continually into the lion's teeth, year after year, and the fact that Hakeem did do it alone supports my belief that he ranks with anyone, and at his best, may be the most comprehensively dominant player to ever walk onto a court.
Dream nevernever never got his due -- except from other players. He was #1 in the league for @3 years, and arguably #2 over the term of his career. The man was great, both ends of the court. Great! Wish the Dream had retired after that game at the end of '01...or after the 2nd title?
I think all of u guys r right. I feel like Hakeem is to b place with the best of the best. Hakeem is still the dream in my heart and one of the best players to ever step foot on a NBA court
It's really tough to compare these guys because of all the external factors like the era the player was playing in, the competition of the league at the time, the teammates, etc... For example, it's hard for me to just simply use Wilt's stats to declare him the best of all time. I mean, if he scored 100 points in a game that tells me there was something seriously wrong with the competition level at the time he played. With Russell, from all I've heard he had no offensive game to speak of other than put backs and had a FG% of 40%. It's hard for me to give the nod to someone who doesn't possess offensive skills, which...let's face it...is really what makes basketball what it is. As for all the championships he's won, didn't several of his teammates make the 50-best NBA team? I don't like just jumping to the conclusion that a player is better than another simply because he was part of more championship teams. That just seems like a lazy analysis to me. As for Kareem, I think Hakeem was a better all-around defender and he could do twice as much offensively as Kareem. Shaq's a tough one. I don't think he's had to play against the same competition throughout his career as Hakeem did. Plus, Shaq has played with big name all-stars like Kobe and Penny. Head to head they were pretty much even. I'll give it to Hakeem just because what he was able to do and how he went about doing it was much more incredible than what Shaq has done, which is rely on his size. As far as Moses...no way. I would rank them: 1. Wilt 2. Hakeem 3. Shaq 4. Kareem 5. Russell
I agree with the original link with one exception. I think Hakeem will clearly go down a notch higher than Moses (a solid #6 though). Wilt, Kareem, Russell, they are the best so far. Shaq could join them, but if Shaq doesn't get another title I think it will be pretty much even-steven with him and Hakeem for the 4/5 slots. Not true IMO. Hakeem was the better defender but Kareem in his prime is almost definetly the 2nd best offensive center of all time (behind Wilt). The Kareem we saw in the 80s was to his former self what the 98-00 Hakeem was to his 91-95 self. One guy who actually was awesume but just for a short time was Bill Walton. I'd rather take a healthy young Walton over Ewing and Robinson to win a game any day. If he stayed healthy he probably would be even with Moses, or ahead of Moses and just behind Hakeem/Shaq.
I worded my statement terribly. Obviously Hakeem wasn't twice as productive or effective as Kareem on the offensive end. I didn't mean that. What I meant is he could do a wider variety of things on the offensive end than Kareem. Kareem had his trusty sky hook, but could he do baseline fadeways like Hakeem or did he have the footwork that Hakeem possessed? With Olajuwon being shorter than Kareem he had to find more creative ways to get shots up. Was Kareem a better jump shooter from ten to fifteen feet than Hakeem or something? I don't know what else Kareem could possibly be better than Hakeem at on the offensive end...except for the skyhook of course. I just find it hard to believe he had a wider array of moves than Hakeem did. If that was so, wouldn't there have been more comparisons of Hakeem to Jabar. From all accounts, Hakeem expanded the game in his prime years by doing things that a center had never done before. And it's true, most of the footage I've seen of Jabar was during the 80's. But I'm interested to find out what are some things he could do that makes him a better offensive player than Dream.
The skyhook to Kareem was like the Dreamshake to Hakeem--each was their patent move but neither remotely fully described what they could do offensively. Kareem had great footwork as well, was athletic, good shooter, graceful, probably the better passer, etc. Hakeem was stronger and had a quicker 1st step-- that probably helped him have more dimension to his low post game, but overall Kareem was better offensively IMO. Kareem also lead the league in rebouding and blocks one year (Hakeem did this too), so it wasn't like Kareem was also great defensively even if not Hakeem's equal there (IMO Hakeem or Russell were the best ever defensive players). Remember Kareem had 4 season scoring over 30 PPG, 6 league MVPs and 6 rings in the pros (plus 3 out of 3 rings in college). Come to think of it, I think it is highly unlikely Shaq will ever be considered his equal as well. Kareem, Wilt and MJ are the 3 guys I think with a decent argument for being the best basketball player of all time, though IMO Kareem is probably 3rd.
Hakeem belongs in the first tier I completely agree with you MacBeth great post. You saw what happened when Dream had a healthy Drexler, they rolled to a NBA championship. You add a healthy, in his prime Barkley to that line-up and that team wins no less then 3, and maybe 4 or 5 championships. Now imagine when you're compare Dream, he suddenlyhas 3 to 5 rings. In fact, having a healthy in their prime Drexler and Barkley would have helped his place in history another way. Say that team with the Big Three wins 3 to 5 rings. Suddenly the Rockets, with star power like Drexler and Dream, and having a mainstream name like Barkley would have gotten the Rockets the recognition they deserve. I always thought that teams like the Rockets and Pistons didn't get the respect they deserved because they didn't have a "name" player in the mainstream like other championship teams. Boston had Larry Bird, the Lakers had Magic and Shaq and Kobe, the Bulls had Michael Jordan, Philaelphia had Dr. J. The Rockets and Pistons didn't have guys that was that recognized outside of "mainstream". Isiah and Dream didn't quite have that luster for whatever reason. Throw in Barkley and you get that. Barkley may not have been the best player on the team, but he would have been the best known player, and the Rockets get pub, and they're recognized as the dynasty that they are. As a result Dream gets the respect that he deserves as the pillar of that dynasty.
We can never discredit what Dream has done especially carrying the baggage, but in the long run, it comes down to the paper and the public opinion. Yes, we know Dream didn't have superior secondary support until he was too old, and we know Dream had serious competition in the middle, but it isn't meant to be for him to be mentioned with Wilt, Jabbar, and Russell. Let's strip away the what-ifs. What if we traded Ralph and had Drexler and Jordan? What if we drafted Joe Dumars (because we had the next pick after Detroit)? What if Barkley was healthy? What if this and what if that? No critic in the future will use what ifs to push the status of a basketball player. It would be a good footnote but that's all. Hell, what if Penny never had knee problems? What if we traded Dream for McGrady back in '99? Oh well, it's nice and all, but it doesn't matter in the long run. It's like this whole Pat Ewing argument. Every blames John Starks for Games 6 & 7 which ultimately comes back to haunt Ewing, but hey, Starks was killing us before his mishap in Game 7 and Ewing was offensively stagnant in the series. Over all, he just didn't win. No excuses. Same for Barkley. Same for Malone and Stockton. Curse you MJ! In every era, there's always going to be some argument about allevating the status of certain players. One day when Kobe retires, I'm sure the younger kids will argue that MJ wasn't all that. Luckily, we'll be around to keep their heads straight. I agree with all of you. But I'm looking forward, trying to be analytical about his status in the long run. He'll be behind all of them, and Shaq, too. Look at Jabbar! Jesus, he's got the rings, and the skills to match any of them and he's still under Wilt (who really doesn't have that much rings) and Russell. Personally, I think Dream is third behind Jabbar and then Wilt. If Dream and Ewing had been battling in playoffs year in and year out like the Lakers and Celtics, then that would have definitely put them over, but it's all just what ifs.
I guess we'll never know. Perhaps Kareem scored so much because Magic was so unselfish. Perhaps Wilt was so dominant because of the competition. I'd like to see how Russell and Wilt matched up one-on-one. If Russel held his own, I think that would say a lot about Wilt's domination. I think Hakeem belongs up there with them. He was the quickest, and while we'll never know if we was the true NBA blocks leader, he also added over a steal a game...which ranks him in the top ten all time (for any player, not just centers). That's impressive. Olajuwon was dominating in other ways. No center save Kareem scored as well 15-18 feet away from the basket as Olajuwon...who created space with the best foot work of any center...if not player. He wasn't as strong as Wilt or Shaq, nor was he as prolific as Kareem, nor as good as a rebounder as Russel, but overall, I think he could out play any of them on any given day. There was times when Olajuwon could not miss. And not from five feet shooting jump shots. But crazy-ass spinning 18 ft turn arounds where the defenders just stared at each other afterwards. Whole crowds paused and wondered what the hell just happend. His move was rated better then Jordons. That was poetry. Unconcious he was at time...Jordanesque. Hakeem doesn't belong in the same league has Wilt or Shaq or Russell. He belongs with Jordon. Hakeem rose to the occasion in big games and he was consistant in all others.
I think the original article is correct. Dream was a great player but Wilt, Russell and Kareem were so dominant for so long. Say what you want about teammates but to some degree Wilt, Russell and Kareem made their teammates better. I am not arguing that Dream had as strong as supporting casts but I still see Wilt in a class of his own, followed by Rusell, Kareem and now Shaq. Dream is definetely a top 5 center of all time. He is probably the second best athlete of the 5 9Wilt being the best) and was the best defender (along with Russell). But Shaq and Wilt were so physically dominant. Kareem was unstoppable for so long and Russell was the leader of the greatest NBA dynasty (apolgies to MJ's Bulls).
I don't understand how did a center shooting at 44% become a hall of famer. His defense must be mighty good for that. Oh, wait, he is just a Dennis Rodman under the name of Bill Russel. BTW. Hakeem had Otis Thorpe, an all star in his first championship run, then Drexler the next year. So to say he didn't get much help from teammates isn't very accurate. Nonethelessly, I agree to put Hakeem in the same class of Wilt and Jabbar. Hakeem is the best all around center of all time. This guy redefined the position.
I honestly don't think that you can be serious and give an answer to that question...I mean, does 12, 456th sound a whole lot more accurate than 4 615th? I sure don't know...
hakeem should definatly be up there w/ the greats. maybe he does not own the the scoring title but look at all the other statistcal catagories career totals for olajuwon( steals ,blocks,rebounds....) he is the best.....period.
Hakeem probably would lead in steals. But Wilt and Kareem would have killed on accumulated boards and blocks if they kept those stats when they started playing. Gosh guys, you think saying the guy is a slight notch better than Moses and a slight notch below Wilt and Kareem would make the guy a phenomenal player and legend. Well it does. BTW Kareem scored more of his points and was at his greatist well before Magic even got out of college. I am sorry, but the only thing Hakeem has over Kareem or Wilt cumulatively is probably steals (well he was much better FT shooter than Wilt I guess also). Those guys also most dominanted when their supporting casts were worse than some of the Rocket's teams--it wasn't like those guys got all their MVPs and best statistical years the times they had other great players around them.
Okay, here's my universal equalizer formula created on a whim: 1) Dominance of that era a) Competition with other centers b) Season records c) Playoff records d) Career and seasonal stats 2) Percentage of contribution to team 3) Number of Championship rings 4) Intangibles If anyone has anything to add to it, but do so, it's all just tentative. Wilt is the consensus number one guy. A true big man before his time, he was also athletic (but not as much as Dream and then Jabbar). The only knock on him would be the expectations. Two rings and not even back-to-back is enought to warrant some speculation. And in one of those years, he was asked to play like Russell in order to win it (think '67 was the year). If Wilt had more rings, there would be no discussion of this. Yes, competiton wasn't that great, but this is based on the era. Besides, they had guys averaging 15-20 back then anyway. Russell is the "ultimate" defender. How can you argue with 11 rings? Easy, teammates. He had the support, period. He wasn't even much of a scorer (18 pts his highest average in any season), but he claims he didn't need to since centers are suppose to know their roles on defense. It's a question of juggling. Yes, he was a great defender. No, he didn't dominate on the offensive side. Yes, he did have 11 rings. No, he did it because of superior backup. Juggle, juggle. Jabbar... really no faults. He won a ring before Magic, but it would be ignorant to say he didn't need Magic. They needed each other, and it shows on all their stats. Really can't find fault with him. Competed against Moses, Gilmore, Parish etc. Maybe it's not Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing, but it's still a good group. Nevertheless, Magic would be the main argument. Dream is like a firecracker or firefly in my opinion. Unlike the rest, his team never made it far enough in the playoffs repeatedly to show his dominance. He was the league's best center with the league's best Moe, Larry and Curly players. When Dream exploded thoughout 94-95, it was simply a breathtaking experience. But he didn't sustain it long enough, which will be his biggest flaw. In that timeframe, no one will argue that he was behind the rest. He's right there with no questions asked. Even better? In my opinion, yes. But taking it in as a whole, the fluster is gone like the firecracker or firefly, an explosion of pure immaculate greatness and then poof. Okay, now I'm done with this topic, back to being a casual viewer.
Dream was the best defensive player I have ever seen and my list includes Rodman, Jordan, Kareem, Moses Malone and just about anyone from 1978 and on. I have always heard of Russell’s greatness on defense but I can not imagine that it was better than Dreams when Dream was in his prime. I just don’t see any way that Russell was better than Dream when Dream had a great offensive game to go with his defense. I was lucky enough to see quite a bit of Moses Malone and anyone that thinks he does not deserve to be in the top tier are nuts. Moses completely dominated Kareem in the 80 play-offs when the Rockets beat the Lakers. Moses dominated Kareem again a couple of years later in the finals when he won the finals MVP with Philly. Moses Malone also won his three league MVP’s when Kareem was in his prime. When Moses and Kareem were both in their primes Moses was better. Kareem never lead a team to the finals and Moses did. With Milwaukee Kareem had Oscar Robertson and when he was with the Lakers he could not get them back to the finals until Magic came along. Moses could put a team on his back and carry them unlike Kareem. Walton IMO is definitely a top five center when he was at his best and he was better than Kareem or Russell. He could put a team on his back and he played better defense than Kareem and was a better passer. Walton is the best passing big man that I have ever seen. Here is my list. Tier One: (There is only one) 1. Wilt - Best player of all time...period. Tier Two: (Each has can say he is the best of this bunch but this is how I rate them) 1. Bill Walton - I hate big red but he could do it all 2. Hakeem Olajuwan - Greatest defensive player of all time and dominant on the offensive end 3. Moses Malone - During his prime he was never out played by an opposing big man (at least that is the way I remember it J ) Greatest offensive rebounder of all time. 4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar - Not a leader IMO but he was very similar to Walton in his style of play. He could block shots but was not a great defender. Sky Hook was the most unstoppable shot of all time. 5. Shaq O’Neal - The only great center of his era. Tier Three: 1. Bill Russell - No offense 2. Elvin Hayes - No defense 3. Patrick Ewing - No titles 4. David Robinson - No heart (and too soft) 5. Nate Thurman - No success after Wilt left the Warriors There are others that I am leaving out that probably deserve to be somewhere on tier three or even a little lower like Willis Reed but I think that is enough.
