Rumors of Saudi Arabia - Pakistan Defence Agreement

Oh my. They can't do that can they? Who gave them the right to talk about defense issues. I don't remember Bush doing that.

Bush might order the working class and their children to invade and occupy Saudi Arabia. Pakistan is safe given their large population and not so coincidentally lack of oil.

 

I don't know, but this is a bit scary. Pakistan is scary anyway. If the Muslim fundamentalists ever take over there, big trouble is brewing. The Saudis are probably some of the most extreme people in the way they interpret Islam, so I don't really like the idea of nuclear technology in their hands either.

 

Very predictable. As we see with N. Korea and Iran and now with Saudi Arabia, the Bush doctrine of starting wars first without threats from other countries makes them all scramble for nukes.

Sadly these chickenwhawk idiots might wind up getting us all killed someday with this stupidilty.

Their stupidity in telling countries to surrender or go nuclear is not going to work.

 

This would be very disturbing if it were to come to pass, to say the least. What would be the motivation of the Saudi's? Wouldn't it open a Pandora's box of radical infiltration that would be a threat to the ruling family?

I know the Wasabi branch of Islam they have is radical, but it is largely under their control. This would open the royal family to a host of potential threats. Frankly, I can't see it happening. We'll have to wait and see. Perhaps it's not sincere and is a shot across the bow of the Bush Administration for creating instability in the region, from the Saudi point of view. Something like, "Hey, we can do that sort of thing as well. And we're angry."

The reasons for Pakistan to do this are obvious.

 

Tell me more about this "Wasabi" branch of Islam. Are they spicy and hot?

 

The Saudis are already providing terrorists loads of money and support.

 

Regardless of what they may or may not be doing, they want to stay in power. I can't see the scenario Mango brought up as helping them do that.

 

This possible nuclear proliferation ,of course, is frightening.. It is the type of chaos and instability that was predicted by many to result after the ill fated Iraq war which was supposedly about wmd.

Who knows if the story is true. As we know all too well, the neocons and their clones in Israel like to start fibs about Arabs and wmd. It gets the working class worked up to send their children to war. We have seen talk of schemes by Israel to bomb nuclear facilities in Pakistan.

I could see Saudi Arabia being threatened that the US might want to take it over for oil, or more likely go for a coup to install some neocon University professor like we did with Chalabi in Iraq.

Actual existing nuclear weapons might make the US think twice about schemes to destabilize Saudi Arabia.

Things are different than before ,when the US to insure access to Saudi oil, supported Saudi fundamentalism or whatever it took, as they thought it kept the people docile,. Saudi's oil no longer protects them from destabilizing moves by the US , if we can reliably subjugate Iraqi oil reserves. Certainly Israel would like this. Halliburton would support it. The neocons have talked about this. It would be in line with the crazed scheme to remake the Middle East by conquering them all and make them all Muslim democrats who like the Post 1967 borders of Israel. We have crazy generals put in by the Bush adminstration who basically believe in killing Muslims for Christ.

It is understandable that all Muslim and or Arab nations would be threatened by the neocons. Hopefull they don't react to irrationally. Blowback from aggressive foreign policy adventures is always hard to predict, but the Bush adminstration sufered from hubris.

 

it was only a matter of time. if not pakistan, then north korea, and not them, then china or russia or even the EU. or if all else fails, eventually they'll develop it themselves. this just comes a little earlier than even i had anticipated.

let's hope it isn't true. i'd like to give peace and reconciliation one more chance before realpolitik decides another set of our conflicts...

 

http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/saudi.htm

Note Saudi's CSS-2 IRBMs. These are useless without unconventional warheads (note CEP of 1km), and I have never understood why they would want them if they did not intend at some point to have a nuclear delivery capacity.

It looks like Asmodeus and Baalzebub are about to sit down for a tea party.

And glynch - come on, be honest. The thought of a radical Wahabbi Islamist government obtaining nuclear weapons tickles your dong, doesn't it? I mean, you've always been pro-proliferation before, so this should be music to your ears.

 

If they feel their history is going to lead the US to end their power, then this is an action they would want to take. This would deter the US from doing to them what was done in Iraq. Or rather, it will help stem the "spread of democracy" in the Saudi kingdom. It is all about staying in power.

 

treeman, don't you think the Saudi royal family would be nuts to do this? If anything would bring the US to take over the Kingdom, it would be the thought of it acquiring nukes... and I'd be one of the first in line saying we should take action.

Oh, and I hate the fact that you can't edit. Wahabbi... not Wasabi! (or Wahabbi is closer, anyway )


JeffB, see the above. I think it would insure a US invasion, not the opposite.

 

Deckard:

It is a fact that Saudi has those missiles. That is undisputed. It is also a fact that they are nearly useless without unconventional warheads - they make SCUDs look accurate. Draw from that what you will.

I personally see no other reason that they would buy all of those missiles, spend billions of dollars erecting a super-secret launch facility in the middle of the desert (which US intel knows about), and then put useless payloads on the missiles themselves.

Make of it what you will. I think they want an Islamic bomb to guard Islam's holy sites. And to deter Israel and the US from getting any funny ideas.

 

Tree,
I don't know if US intel is the source I trust when it comes to WMD. Does Saudi Arabia have any missiles that are more accurate than these? Maybe the US wouldn't put conventional weapons on these missiles, but it might be the best non-US weapons they can get their hands on? It just doesn't seem like a foregone conclusion that these things were obtained in order to put nukes on them.

 

goophers:

Not that they could fit a nuke warhead on. These missiles are sold with about a 2,000lb warhead on them, I think. While that makes a big boom, if unguided (and these are not guided missiles, they are ballistic missiles, rather like large, less-accurate SCUDs) they are not going to damage their target. Not unless they get an extremely lucky break.

The Circular Error Probability of 1km means that they are likely to land within a kilometer of their target. This rate of accuracy is generally only acceptable when nuclear weapons are used. For any other type of payload - even CBW payloads - this is judged to be too inaccurate to be of any use in destroying a target.

There is one example of two states using inaccurate conventional rockets like this: Iraq and Iran. During their war they each lobbed hundreds of SCUD-type weapons armed with large conventional warheads at Tehran and Baghdad, respectively (much as Israel and Saudi were targeted during the 1991 war). They were militarily insignificant, as they couldn't hit what they were aimed at, but they were used to terrorize the enemy populace.

So, the other conceivable alternative use of these missiles might follow that vein - they could be intended for use as terror weapons against enemy populations. Then the question would be: Well who in the hell would the Saudis want to terrorize in such a manner?

The only conceivable answer I could come up with would be the Israelis...

So that is a possibility. Personally I think it more likely that they intend to put nukes on them. As I said, make of it what you will.

 

I mean, you've always been pro-proliferation before, so this should be music to your ears.


No I'm against proliferation. Just realistic. The technology is becoming more understandable. The policy of promoting nukes for us and our friends and your neocon crowd's penchant for loose talk about nuking non-nuclear states, developing second generation mini-nukes so that we can use them without so much fallout, pun intended, etc. all promote nukes.

You Stangeglove types just don't get it.

Hey, Treeman, looks like you're up for kicking some more Muslim ass. Do you think the non National Review reading military guys, who havn't spent years dreaming of war, join you in this enthusiam? I know your general, the Holy Warrior joins you in your enthusiasm.

Oops! Who could guess that the blowback would lead to other Arab states rushing to get nukes? I guess the the National Review didn't mentionmention that possiblity when they billed the Iraq War as the war to end all nukes.

 

Of course I still disagree. I think there is a lesson to be learned from the way the US has engaged North Korea, Pakistan, Iran and Iraq. The one without the nukes gets the invastion.

Why would we invade if they had nukes? Sure the thought of them acquiring the weapons may would yield a US invasion. But if they somehow got the nukes "under our noses," so to speak--as this article suggests they are doing, (somewhat like NK and Iran) then what do we do? As for the risk the Saudi's take that we will find out about their attempts to acquire nukes: If they already think the US is plotting the fall of their kingdom, what deterrent do they have to not seek the weapons?

The difference between our perspectives is the difference between having the nukes and trying to get them.