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[Review] Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen? by Steve Freeman & Joel Bleifuss

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by No Worries, Jan 18, 2007.

  1. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Who won?

    I think they call them "exit polls" because people bolt for the exits when you mention them, but I'm still fascinated by the subject myself, and this book is one of the reasons why. In Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen?, the central focus is, of course, on the infamous exit-poll discrepancies of the 2004 US Presidential election; but the authors also put it into context: they discuss the 2000 election, the irregularities in Ohio in 2004, the electronic voting machines issues, and the media's strange reluctance to report on any of these problems. Further, in the chapter "How did America really vote?", they compare the indications of the raw exit-poll data to other available polling data. Throughout, Freeman and Bleifuss do an excellent job of presenting arguments based on statistical analysis in a clear, concise way.

    The heart of the book in my opinion, is Chapter 5, "The inauguration eve exit-poll report": The Edison and Mitofsky firms that conducted the NEP exit polls later released a report trying to explain how they could have gotten it so far wrong. Freeman and Bleifuss, of course, take issue with the presumption that the discrepancies must be "errors", and argue in a different direction. This section makes an exciting read (in a nerdy sort of way) it's an impressive piece of statistical judo: Freeman and Bleifuss take on Edison/Mitofsky with their own data, and totally shred their conclusions. The authors show: That the exit-poll discrepancies had a statistically significant correlation with the use of electronic voting machines, with races in battleground states, and in almost all cases favored the Republicans. The "Reluctant Bush Respondant" theory looks extremely unlikely: response rates actually look slightly better in Bush strongholds than in Kerry strongholds; and while media skepticism remains strong among conservatives, it has been on the rise among Democrats, and yet the data shows no shift in relative avoidance of pollsters. They also deal with the various other excuses that were floated shortly after the election: The discrepancies can't be shrugged off with an "exit polls are not reliable" — theory shows that they should be better than any other survey data, and history shows that they always have been pretty reliable. There was no upswing of support for Bush throughout election day — that impression was entirely an artifact of the media "correcting" the exit-poll figures to match the official results. One of the book's authors, Steven Freeman, was one of the first to examine the exit-poll discrepancies, and as a professor at University of Pennsylvania with a background in survey design, he was well equipped to begin delving into the peculiarities he had noticed.

    Overall, this is an excellent book for people interested in evaluating the data; with lots of graphs that make it easy to do informal estimates of the strength of their conclusions (just eye-balling the scatter, the correlations they point to look real, albeit a little loose, as you might expect). There's also an appendix with a very clear exposition of the the concept of statistical significance, and how it applies to this polling data. There are of course, limits to what one can conclude just from the exit-poll discrepancies: "We reiterate that this does not prove the official vote count was fraudulent. What it does say is that the discrepancy between the official count and the exit polls can't be just a statistical fluke, but commands some kind of systematic explanation: Either the exit poll was deeply flawed or else the vote count was corrupted. "

    This is a remarkably restrained book: unlike many authors addressing this controversial subject, Freeman and Bleifuss have resisted the temptation to rant or speculate or even to editorialize very much. Freeman claims that he is not a political person (and adds "I despise the Democrats"); possibly this has helped him to maintain his neutrality and focus on the facts of the case.

    Personally, I found this book to be something of a revelation: in the confusion immediately after the 2004 election, I had the impression that the people who wanted to believe that it was legitimate at least had some wiggle room. There was some disagreement about the meaning of the exit polls: there was that study at Berkeley that found significant problems, but then the MIT study chimed in saying there wasn't, so who do you believe? The thing is, the MIT guys later admitted that they got it wrong: they used the "corrected" data, not the originally reported exit poll results. The media never covered that development, and I missed it myself...

    On the subject of electronic voting machines, They include a chapter discussing electronic voting in general which covers ground that is by now familiar with most readers here: the strange case of Wally O'Dell and Diebold; and also the lesser known problems with ES&S. Have you heard this one? "In 1992, Hagel, then an investment banker and president of the holding company McCarthy & Co., became chairman of American Information Systems, which was to become ES&S in 1999. [...] In the 1996 elections, Hagel launched his political career with two stunning upsets. He won a primary victory in Nebraska [...] despite the fact that he was not well known. Then, in the general election, Hagel was elected to the Senate in what Business Week described as 'an unexpected 1996 landslide victory over Ben Nelson, Nebraska's popular Democratic governor.'"

    My experience is that a lot of people need to hear this point: "The voting machine company Datamark, which became American Information Systems and is now known as ES&S, was founded in 1980 by two brothers, Bob and Todd Urosevich. Today, Todd is a vice president at ES&S and Bob is CEO of Diebold Election Systems."

    It's impossible to see how you can come away from this situation without seeing that we badly need reform of the electoral system: even if you don't believe the 2004 election was "stolen", how do you know the next one isn't going to be? A paper trail that can actually be recounted would be a nice start, eh? But only a start. As the author's point out: "We devoted a chapter to the ills of electronic voting, but a critical lesson of the 2004 election is that not only DREs, but all kinds of voting machine systems are suspect. Edison/Mitofsky data showed that while hand counted ballots accurately reflected exit-poll survey results, counts from all the major categories of voting machines did not."

    In one short passage, the authors list a few "grounds for hope", but following up on these points is not encouraging: The Diebold-injunction law suit in California brought by VoterAction has since been denied and one attempt at a paper trail amendment, HR 550 has stalled out.

    If you're looking for an answer to the question posed by the book's title, the authors conclude: "So how did America really vote? Every independent measure points to a Kerry victory of about 5 percentage points in the popular vote nationwide, a swing of 8 to 10 million votes from the official count."

    Of the many and various potentially depressing books out there about the state of the United States, I recommend this one highly: it addresses a critical set of issues that everything else depends on.
     
  2. ymc

    ymc Member

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    What's the point of beating a dead horse? Let's think about impeachment, Hague and all that. :D
     
  3. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Point is we better figure out if we are electing who we are actually electing. Can anyone imagine if the shoe was on the other foot with the Dems in the WH and on the other end of an electronic voting machine conttract?
     
  4. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    This is the kicker for me. Very interesting how that worked out.
     
  5. nyquil82

    nyquil82 Member

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    I know some people still care about this, but on the other hand, if Bush and his type of republicans didn't stick around, they wouldn't have been held responsible for all the crap they've done for the country. I'm fairly certain that those type of republicans will never hold power in this country again, but that came a at a dear price of the world hating us, trillions of dollars, and hundreds of thousands of innocent lives.
     
  6. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Same things were said about Nixon.
     
  7. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    And it took over 25 years to get another Republican President as bad, or worse. I think Bush is worse, myself. Nixon may have been nuts, but at least he was an intelligent nut. George W. Bush is nuts and stupid.



    D&D. Don't Feed Your Dog Nuts.
     
  8. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    Typical Democrat analysis: Look backwards and complain.
     
  9. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Hmmmm... so they secretly counted beforehand in order to find "random" precincts where there were no questions in order to not recount the whole thing...

     
  10. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Glad you did not read the article before you commented!!!
     
  11. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Nuts is nuts.
     
  12. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    True, but some nuts crack easier than others.




    D&D. Nuts.
     
  13. ymc

    ymc Member

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    But we gotta envy Bush's luck. Sometimes it is better to be lucky than be good.
     
  14. basso

    basso Member
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    if they hacked the machines to steal the election, why didn't they do it in 2006, when even more electronic machines were in use. but, in any case, you may be on to something. i ran across this old interview w/ a couple of the hackers who supposedly pulled this off. sssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhh don't tell anyone.

    [rquoter]Frank: So, did we steal the election this time?

    Hacker1: Yeah, totally. We like rigged all the machines so there was no way we could lose.

    Frank: Why didn't you tell me we had it in the bag? I was like totally worried about this election!

    Hacker2: Sorry, dude, but we were like told not to spread it around too much.

    Hacker1: Yeah, we needed everyone to act like it was close and worrisome so no one would know we like totally hacked it. That Karl Rove is smart, dude; he knows how to run things.

    Hacker2: Yeah, Rove is totally evil and totally cool.

    Frank: So did you hack voting everywhere?

    Hacker1: Yeah, otherwise it would look weird if we only improved in the battleground states.

    Hacker2: Rove was completely in charge of all that. He even came in last minute and said, "Give them New Hampshire," and we were like, "Whatever."

    Frank: So was it hard hacking the vote?

    Hacker1: Sorta, but Diebold gave us easy to follow instructions.

    Hacker2: We totally owned all the votes.

    Hacker1: Totally.

    Hacker2: It was funny to see the Democrats try and cheat the old-fashioned way. They can bring in all the dead people they want to vote, but we'll just change their votes to Republican in the end.

    Hacker1: (laughs) I bet you didn't know this, but Michael Moore voted for Bush.

    Hacker2: (laughs) He doesn't know it either.

    Frank: But aren't people going to find out about this eventually?

    Hacker1: Not if we're careful, dude.

    Hacker2: First off, we're not going to hand out many landslides. It's going to be a bunch of real close ones so we can say to the Democrats, "Oh, that was so close. You really should try again."

    Hacker1: (laughs) We're going to drive them nuts.

    Hacker2: Anyway, the VRWC will save money in the future as we cut back on commercials and campaign appearances, but Rove will make sure we don't cut back so much that it looks suspicious.

    Frank: Except to the Democratic Underground.

    Hacker1: Yeah, there's no fooling those guys. They're on top of everything. Luckily, Rove had a plan for them too.

    Hacker2: What he did was get all these mental patients - total schizos - and brainwash them about how evil the Republicans are. Then he gave them internet connections.

    Hacker1: Now the schizos that Rove planted totally rule the Democratic Underground discussion forum. They’re the most prolific posters. Instead of getting anywhere on all the evil plans we have, they waste time blaming a Democrat event being rained out on Karl Rove.

    Hacker2: Which is stupid because our weather machine is only 60% complete.

    Frank: What about bloggers talking about voting malfeasance?

    Hacker1: Dude, Rove totally owns the blogosphere. Most of the popular bloggers write only what Rove tells them.

    Frank: Like who?

    Hacker1: Well, Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs, half the people at the Volokh Conspiracy, and Scott Ott of Scrappleface.

    Frank: I knew it!

    Hacker2: The phrase "Axis of Weasels" was all Rove's idea.

    Frank: So he controls the bloggers to combat the left-wing blogs like the DailyKos?

    (both hackers laugh)

    Hacker1: Dude, Rove personally writes DailyKos.

    Hacker2: Yeah, he wants to control what the left are whining about.

    Frank: Whoa! That Rove is one sinister, evil dude!

    Hacker2: Totally.

    Frank: Hey, has Rove ever mentioned my site?

    Hacker1: Uh... yeah, once. He asked me, "What's this site 'IMAO'?" And I told him, "Remember, it's the one with the moon exploding." And he said, "Oh yeah, it's the stupid site about the angry dog."

    Frank: Cool! He knows my site! So, back to the main subject, what's in the future of voting now that we own it?

    Hacker1: We'll only keep fixing elections for so long. Eventually we'll dissolve the Democratic party and turn the U.S. into a one-party ruled dictatorship.

    Hacker2: That's Rove's long-term plans.

    Frank: Neato. Well, thanks for talking to me.

    Hacker1: You're not going to publish this, are you?

    Frank: Uh... well... er... uh... no.[/rquoter]

    http://www.imao.us/archives/002338.html
     
  15. basso

    basso Member
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    seriously, this has been debunked so many times it's not even worth doing it anymore. after olbermann's screaming, and RFK, jr.' screed in rolling stone, among others. i don't have a subscritpion, but try searching the archives of noted bush supporters Salon.com. get over it- kerry lost fair and square.
     
  16. basso

    basso Member
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  17. deepblue

    deepblue Member

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    Didn't the Dems just won the House and the Senate?
    How the hell did that happen? :rolleyes:
     
  18. hotballa

    hotballa Contributing Member

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    lol!

    regardless though, i really don't want anyone in charge of this voting stuff to ever ever do any sort of lobbying at all.
     
  19. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    What has never been explained is

    "We reiterate that this does not prove the official vote count was fraudulent. What it does say is that the discrepancy between the official count and the exit polls can't be just a statistical fluke, but commands some kind of systematic explanation: Either the exit poll was deeply flawed or else the vote count was corrupted. "

    Explaining the discrepancy might lead to fixing a real problem in vote counting. Repub Congress chose not to investigate, while the Dem Congress might be of a different opinion (though they do have a time limitation of which things that the Repubs ignored for 6 years to investigate).

    Back to being fixated on your "kerry lost fair and square" notion.
     
  20. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Member

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    were there significant discrepancies between exit polls and poll results which favored the democrats?
     

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