1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Realistic opportunities for Small Forward spot next season

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by The Cat, May 12, 2001.

Tags:
Page 1 of 3
  1. The Cat

    The Cat Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    20,819
    Likes Received:
    5,347
    In all the Webber mania that has captured the board right now, we seem to forget we have the small forward slot in our lineup completely up in the air. If we can shore up this spot, resigning Mo, Dream, Mooch, etc. may have us better off than signing Webber. So, realistically, who would you guys like to see as our starting small forward next season? Let's go over a few that at least I feel are somewhat realistic opportunities.

    Shane Battier

    Most likely a perfect fit for this offense. Hard-nosed player with a great outside shot, great defense, and good hustle and spark. It's hard to find an area of the game he has a weakness at, although he won't have a significantly awesome area either. Looks a lot like Wally Szczerbiak did going into that draft two seasons ago. However, when considering him, you also have to remember that he is not blessed with great footspeed, so you won't get as many transition chances as you would with Shandon, and that I feel is important to have in an SF. His ability to create his own shot is also questionable, although that probably won't be that big of a deal in our offense. He may not fall to 13, but likely he will go 7-10, and with 3 first rounders and players available we could move up imho to get him. The question is, do we want to? The next guy may have a say in that...

    Richard Jefferson

    One of the better pure potential guys in the draft. He has that championship experience and mentality like Battier, as you could see in the championship game against Duke when he was about the only Wildcat to step up and try to win in the 2nd half. His strong suit, however, contrasts with Battier in that he's the perfect SF for the transition game. Great timing on his jumps, excellent speed and athletism, and really understands the game and knows where to get on the break. In the halfcourt set, he's less effective than in transition, but still a pretty good player. He moves without the ball a lot (which is perfect for getting some alleyoops off a backscreen in this offense), has a good midrange game, and I think he has NBA three point range. (I saw him drill several from well beyond the college line this season) Defensively, he's a great on the ball defender, which you could definitely see when he shut down Jason Richardson in the Final Four. He also has Tracy McGrady like shot blocking ability from the swingman spot, which is really aided by his good timing, which I mentioned above. He'll probably go about 13-15 in the draft, and he's the guy that may be perfect for us.

    Shandon Anderson

    You guys probably know I don't like Shandon. But I will admit, he has a few strengths. He can move without the ball well when he wants to. He still plays pretty solid defense, and is good whenever we get in the transition. But, at 6'6 he is small for the SF spot, and quite simply I feel too many games he gets content to slide along the three point line and shoot 3's or pass it off after the kickouts by the big men. If Rudy could ever get in his head to be agressive, attack the basket, move without the ball, and stop sitting around the 3 point line, we might have something... but he couldn't do it all last year, so who's to say next year will be different? I'd pass on him.

    Ruben Patterson

    A different type of SF here. Yes, he is fast, plays great on the ball defense, and excels in the transition, but whether or not he'd fit in is an interesting question when you think about it. He does bring something the Rockets need-- interior toughness. It sounds funny when you talk about a guy 6'5, but he works so hard when he tries to go inside, and physically he is stronger than most SFs and even some PFs in the game to the point in which he can get 4-5 feet from the basket easy by just backing them down. We could definitely use that, but whether or not you want that from the SF spot is the question. Can you deal with an SF who can only hit consistently out to 18-20 feet? I mean, an interior presence offensively is nice, but as I've said tons of times before, when Walt is hitting his outside shot this offense works beautifully. Can Rudy, in his system, deal with a player who at the SF spot can't be counted on to nail or at least have a shot at the open 3's? That's something the Rockets need to closely look at.

    Austin Croshere

    Croshere is overpriced at 7 million per season, but if we could somehow dump Cato in a deal to get him, it sure would sound nice. If you get someone overpriced, at least get someone overpriced who tries. His game would be nice for the Rockets. He can be physical inside, esp. if you let him post up some of the other SF's in the league, and is also good at taking it off the dribble from the perimeter and does not shy away from the contact inside. In addition, if we keep Mo and get him, he could do a very good job of offsetting Mo's weakness in rebounding, as Croshere still attacks the glass very hard and has that fire to fight for the rebound. In addition to all of that, he can still hit that 3 that is so important to an SF in Rudy's offense. Rudy wanted him badly last summer, and I have a feeling this summer may be no different.

    Dan Langhi

    Not too realistic if you ask me, but I know some on the board have said it was an option at times, and who knows. Dan did show some flashes of what he did in the summer at the end of the season, and the skills are there. Good jumper out to 21-22 feet. Still very quick off the dribble or in transition, and has outstanding athletism, probably better than anyone on our team besides Francis. His defense isn't good, but not atrocious either. The problem is, he still looks lost out on the board way too much to suit me. I think he will be a good player with time, but right now he just looks like a player who has never had to play in an offense which wasn't catered to him; thus you see a lot of confusion by DL on where to go when he's on the weak side without the ball, etc. One of the staples of a Rudy offense is spacing, and until Langhi grasps this offense, I don't think the spacing will be that good with him in the game, because often he simply does not know where to go when he doesn't have the ball. But, a lot of people do say a player's greatest growth occurs between their 1st and 2nd years in the league, and maybe that will be the case with Langhi. He has the skills, but can he convert as soon as next season? Too risky of a bet if you ask me.

    What do you guys think we should do?
    ------------------
    President of the Mo Taylor, Jason Collier, and draft Richard Jefferson fan club!

    Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more!

    Sign up for season 2 of the CC.net NBA Sim League!
    http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000328.html

    [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited May 12, 2001).]
     
    #1 The Cat, May 12, 2001
  2. Kim

    Kim Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 1999
    Messages:
    9,284
    Likes Received:
    4,170
    You can scratch Ruben Patterson off that list. He just plead guilty to attempted rape of his baby's nanny. The story goes along the lines of the nanny was looking for the baby and comes upon the room where Patterson was naked and jacking off. He then says to the nanny, "come on, let's do it," and chases her and forces her to blow him. Then he says, "if you don't tell anyone, everything will be ok."

    The plea actually is a modified guilty, which means that he isn't saying he did it, but agrees that he'll probably be convicted if he goes to trial. Patterson already has a misdameanor for busting some dude's jaw. The penalty, get this, is a maximum of 1 year in jail. WTF? One year maximum for raping your nanny? The prosecutors say that his priors will not be brought up in sentencing. WTF? They also say that he is not getting preferential treatment.

    Ok, maybe he isn't, which means the system is really fukked up, but if this guy is playing next season, that'd be ridiculous. So the rocks don't need a guy like that on the roster. I'd go for Battier or Jefferson.
     
    #2 Kim, May 12, 2001
  3. ZRB

    ZRB Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    6,818
    Likes Received:
    4
    I wish I followed college basketball to have an opinion on those players you mentioned, Cat. They both sound pretty good.

    I really like Patterson. Despite his off-court problems, he is really a good player. I've seen quite a bit of him this year, and I can tell you that he brings just what the Rockets need. He has toughness, hustle, rebounding, and a low post game. I still remember watching him hit the game winning hook shot on the Rockets in Seattle. I also remember seeing him drill a couple game winning free throws against Minnesota, so he's fairly clutch.

    I would prefer to sign him and have him back up one of those college players you mentioned, so that the Rockets would still have a solid shooter starting for them.

    He would be a fantastic spark plug off the bench. A second unit featuring Moochie and Patterson would be excellent.

    ------------------
    The Protrolls.com message boards!

    Protrolls.com!

    Don't visit my site.
     
    #3 ZRB, May 12, 2001
  4. NIKEstrad

    NIKEstrad Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2000
    Messages:
    10,209
    Likes Received:
    4,162
    A sleeper is T. Morris, even if he's picked #22 with the Bucks pick. Remember, Mobley started at PG after being the #41 pick, ahead of Bryce Drew. Another draft possibility is Joe Johnson.

    I expect Langhi to be getting consistent PT, like 15-20 MPG. If we go big all the way in the draft, or trade up or away for a big man(s), and turn Shandon loose, I think we'd see Walt start the season at SF, backed by Langhi/Bullard, and Langhi eventually taking the slot over.

    Maybe even Mo will get some time at the 3 next year.

    ------------------
    "That's been a lifelong dream of mine." -Vince Carter, after laying it in on a breakaway, much to the Vancouver crowd's displeasure.
     
    #4 NIKEstrad, May 12, 2001
  5. alaskansnowman

    alaskansnowman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 1999
    Messages:
    1,961
    Likes Received:
    9

    I agree. My ideal situation would be to trade Walt, then draft Battier or Jefferson or even T-Morris (either one is good), and then let one of them battle it out with Langhi at the SF next year, much like Mo and Kenny this past season. If we don't get rid of Walt, then you can draft a good SF, but the problem is there won't be enough minutes to go around. Rudy has already promised Langhi more minutes this upcoming season, and like Nikestrad said, he'll probably be averaging about 20 minutes a game. Then that leaves only 28 minutes to divide between Draft Pick and Williams.

    This is all assuming that Shando leaves, which I think he will. I just hope Langhi can break out of his shell next year. He would be a very good fit with our system, considering his physical aspects and his 3 point range.


    ------------------
    PrEsident of The Danforth Langhford FAN CLUB... He IS our future All-Star Small Forward



    [This message has been edited by alaskansnowman (edited May 12, 2001).]
     
    #5 alaskansnowman, May 12, 2001
  6. Sherlock

    Sherlock Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 1999
    Messages:
    1,886
    Likes Received:
    19
    If we get Webber, why don't we move MoTay to SF?

    In an earlier interview with Francis, when he said he was trying behind the scenes to get Webber here, he said that Taylor was really a 3 playing at the 4, but that the 3 is his more natural position. If Francis is thinking that, is it possible, so are the Rockets?

    The Rockets seem to be showing they want Taylor AND Webber. The real problem is to make sure we have a legitimate center, or else Taylor won't want to play here, and I would be surprised if we are able to sign Dream.

    I think that's the reason they aren't high on having multiple draft picks, because they have limited room to sign Webber, Taylor and Moochie. I wouldn't be surprised to see them package the draft picks with Cato and Williams, so they can move them, and pick up a center. I think if they thought they could move up somehow to get someone like Curry, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

    ------------------
    the more I know, the more I know I don't know...

    [This message has been edited by Sherlock (edited May 12, 2001).]
     
    #6 Sherlock, May 12, 2001
  7. finalsbound

    finalsbound Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2000
    Messages:
    12,333
    Likes Received:
    927
    OH NO. NOT Patterson.

    Two words...

    Richard Jefferson.

    I am dead serious. This guy has a lot of passion and enthusiasm, and he completely demolished Jason Richardson in the Final Four game. His defense is tremendous, and he claws and fights for every loose ball. His astounding athletic ability allows him to soar for rebounds, and he's a pretty good shooter off the dribble.

    I really think we should take this guy in the draft; he could be a real surprise. Bskball's mock has him going #4, which is utterly ridiculous. But if we don't snatch him at 13, he'll definitely be taken by 18. He's just so strong, so athletic, and he is exactly what we need - a defensive-minded player who will dive for loose balls and help on the boards.

    ------------------
    "They couldn't shoot, rebound, or pass, but other than that, they played great!"

    -Bill Walton
     
    #7 finalsbound, May 12, 2001
  8. heypartner

    heypartner Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    63,510
    Likes Received:
    59,002
    I think aelliott, NIKEstrad, davo and others have shown time and time again that it is mathematically impossible to give Webber max pay *and* resign MoTay for anything more than money left under the cap...if that even exists after signing Webber.

    Suffice it to say that out of the two FREE AGENTS (Mo and Webber), we can only sign one of them.
     
    #8 heypartner, May 12, 2001
  9. Band Geek Mobster

    Band Geek Mobster Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    6,019
    Likes Received:
    17
    Sign and trade is the only way we can have both Webber and Taylor...

    ------------------
    You must always give the Dream back his change!
     
    #9 Band Geek Mobster, May 12, 2001
  10. Glyde22

    Glyde22 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    0
    I hope we go big at the SF position. Battier would be my first choice but I don't think he'll be there at 13. Rudy likes multi-position players. Joe Johnson is 6-9" and has point guard type handles. He could play at the 1,2 and 3 potentially.
    Rodney White is 6-10" and has 3 point range, He can play the three and the 4. With the Nowitzki's, Garnett's and Wallace's in the west you have to go BIG!

    ------------------
     
    #10 Glyde22, May 12, 2001
  11. saleem

    saleem Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2001
    Messages:
    30,260
    Likes Received:
    14,702
    I agree with Glyde 22's assessment.Getting Terrance Morris with the 22nd pick should be our last resort to get a small forward.

    ------------------
     
    #11 saleem, May 12, 2001
  12. vj23k

    vj23k Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2000
    Messages:
    5,351
    Likes Received:
    46
    Not to mention how unequipped Mo is to play the three.

    He doesn't provide the things we need from our three, Athleticism(He's athletic for a four, but not a three), a consistent outside J, great defense, and a good off the dribble game.

    ------------------
    Never Underestimate the Heart of a Champion
     
    #12 vj23k, May 12, 2001
  13. Bay Rock

    Bay Rock Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2001
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    6
    I would like to see Van Horn as our starting SF next season. Cato, #13, #22 to New Jersey for Van Horn & #6. With the #6 pick we can pick up a future replacement for Dream (Diop or Haywood).

    Given that Van Horn is a BYC player, and Houston will be under the cap, this trade works. It will eat up approx $4 million of our cap space, but I think a career 19/7 guy is worth it.

    We can still go after Webber via sign and trade.

    ------------------
     
    #13 Bay Rock, May 13, 2001
  14. ROXTXIA

    ROXTXIA Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2000
    Messages:
    20,886
    Likes Received:
    12,979
    Keith Van Horn was the second pick overall after Duncan. It would take Cato and a re-signed Shandon to get him (at least). This might not be out of the question; Oeilpere hints at Shandon and the Nets but leaves out details (probably for good reason).

    I would like KVH only if Webber is a no-go.

    Of course, considering other trade scenarios that are being postulated (see references to the New York Post threads, also mentioned on the home page of clutchcity), I think grabbing KVH to trade for Webber would be perfect because you screw up a better deal that the Knicks might cook up (3-way and 4-way trade scenarios). I think KVH is from California, so he won't be too adverse to playing there. Besides, he's under contract for awhile.

    I would rather Sacramento fade away and we sign Webber straight up, but this trade would also free up cap space for Hakeem and/or Mooch and/or etc. etc.

    ------------------
     
    #14 ROXTXIA, May 13, 2001
  15. IndianPlaya

    IndianPlaya Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2000
    Messages:
    461
    Likes Received:
    42
    The cat,
    I was just reading your summaries on players, and richard jefferson seeems to be a LOT better than shane battier. I mean in every aspect of the game jefferson is better. So how do you have him going at 13 while battier is gonna be gone by 13?

    But from what i have read and seen, i think jefferson would be the perfect pickup for our team. We should draft him, resign MO-T, resign dream, and go after la frentz. He can help this team a lot more than webber can with his 3 point shot and with his defensive capabilities.

    ------------------
    PrOuD V-P of Whitey Deluxe, Danforth Langford, and any other langhi fan club there may be...
     
    #15 IndianPlaya, May 13, 2001
  16. Bay Rock

    Bay Rock Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2001
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    6
    ROXTXIA

    I understand your point regarding KVH's value (2nd pick after Duncan), but remember he is a BYC player and NJ is over the cap.

    This year KVH is making $9 million, but NJ can only accept $4.5 million back in a trade because of his BYC status.

    After, July 1, KVH becomes a BYC 2 player. He will make $10 million which means that NJ can accept back approx. $7.5 million

    IF we trade with NJ before July 1, we can send Cato ($5.4m) to NJ for Van Horn ($4.5m BYC value) + a cap filler making roughly $300K - $400K in salary.

    After July 1, If you want to send Cato and Shandon to NJ, their combined salaries can not exceed 115% of $7.5 million. Cato will make $6 million which implies that we resign Shandon for no more than $2.5million.

    ------------------
     
    #16 Bay Rock, May 13, 2001
  17. Cato=Bum

    Cato=Bum Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2001
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    1
    I think the Cat is dead on that Battier is going before #13, but that Richard Jefferson is there at #13 for the taking.

    -I think they both are great fits with the Rockets nucleus. Battier is a little better fit IMO, but Jefferson has a significantly higher upside than Battier.

    -I would like to see either Battier or Jefferson at SF next year and bid adios to Shandon. As for Langhi, the guy showed me nothing this year. I could care less what he did in garbage time. He won't be in the NBA in 4 years. Way too fragile and limited skills.

    ------------------
    Get Cato out of there...
     
    #17 Cato=Bum, May 13, 2001
  18. The Cat

    The Cat Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    20,819
    Likes Received:
    5,347
    So how do you have him going at 13 while battier is gonna be gone by 13?

    Battier is more of a sure thing. The rock solid shooting, defense, intangibles, are always certain to be there. He won't ever be a star, but there is little bust risk. He'll always be a very solid 13/6 type SF with great defense, hustle, etc. Nothing more, nothing less. Jefferson can be better, and he has the talent to do so, but there is a little greater risk. I guess a good comparison would be the draft of two years ago when Wally Szczerbiak went top 6 and Shawn Marion didn't. While Marion had the better potential and is obviously realizing it, teams that are close to playoff contention often opt to take the sure thing (like Minnesota took Wally) and let the other guys slip a little. That's why you'll probably see Battier go before 13-- some team not that far away from being competitive and needing that missing piece will go for him.

    ------------------
    President of the Mo Taylor, Jason Collier, and draft Richard Jefferson fan club!

    Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more!

    Sign up for season 2 of the CC.net NBA Sim League!
    http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000328.html
     
    #18 The Cat, May 13, 2001
  19. RunninRaven

    RunninRaven Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2000
    Messages:
    15,266
    Likes Received:
    3,207
    Someone else mentioned this earlier in the thread. But what about Joe Johnson? How likely of a possibility is it that he will be available when our #13 pick comes up? Everything I have heard about this guy sounds great, and sounds like he would fit into our system perfectly.

    ------------------
    Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
     
    #19 RunninRaven, May 13, 2001
  20. Big Haas 66

    Big Haas 66 Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the question of the SF spot should reside first on what happens at the 4.

    If we re-sign Mo Taylor and Dream and keep the team basically the same, I think it would be fitting that we sign someone similar to a Patterson or draft Battier if we can. Basically if we stay put with Mo at the 4 I think we need a 3 that can rebound and defend well. Reason being that Mo doesn't have a great history of hitting the boards, despite his strong frame. A 3 with the characteristics of a Patterson or a Battier would be necessary to improve one big weakness of this year's team which was team defense.

    Now on the flip side, if we sign Webber, I think we go after a Jefferson or Johnson in the draft, who's athletic and can run the floor well, or re-sign Shandon and take our chances. With Webber there to hold the fort on interior D and the boards, I think athleticism would be beneficial at the 3 if CWebb's in the lineup.

    ------------------
    This message was sponsored by Dr. Francis' Foundation of Posterization. The FOP was founded for and is dedicated to those who suffer from posterization by Steve Francis. We feel your pain.
     
    #20 Big Haas 66, May 14, 2001
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 3

Share This Page