Question about Bird Rights

This is a good site to peruse for information on the cap.

http://www.nbpa.com/cba_articles/article-VII_6.php

The Veteran Salary Exception is the same thing as Bird Rights.

From what I have read, there is not a minimum amount of years required for qualifying veterans under the CBA. Therefore, in theory, what you proposed would work.

For instance, because Bonzi had played for Portland for 3 straight years he becomes eligible for "Bird Rights" on any team whose roster he may be on at the end of the year. If we were to cut and then resign him, we would not be eligible to use the Bird Rights provision.
But if we were to extend his contract past next season, we could do so up to the max salary for 5 additonal years.

The scenario which you suggested, in theory, is allowable. A Player like Deke with an expiring contract could be resigned for a 1 year deal @ whatever salary is necessary to get a deal done and then traded for Player A.
But this wouldn't be able to take place until after Dec. 15th:

"No free agent signed in the offseason can be traded until December 15 of that year or until three months have passed (whichever comes later), a rule that prevents teams from signing free agents with the intent of using them strictly as trade fodder. For draft picks this moratorium lasts 30 days."


Because Bonzi still has one year left on his contract, we would not be able to use this tactic until next year.

 

There is no minimum on the # of years for a Bird rights contract (there is a 2 year minimum on Early Bird deals).

You're proposed deal still wouldn't work because you are also proposing a sign-and-trade. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for at least 3 seasons.

 

I have a question of my own, sorry to hijack. I mentioned it in another thread. I remember teams being able to trade during the postseason if they were eliminated. For example the Wiz traded Webber for Richmond during the playoffs. Is that loophole still in effect? Meaning we could move Sura tonight if we wish?

 

the s&t provisions only apply if it is established that the player has agreed to be resigned only for a s&t.

signing and then trading a player can be a completely seperate scenario.

 

Are you pointing out the finer details of the NBA Players contract to aelliott?

 

The wording for this scenario is very vague, so I can see where a team could take advantage of the supposed "loophole":

"(c) A Team cannot trade any player after the NBA trade deadline occurring in the last Season of the player’s Contract, or after the NBA trade deadline occurring in any Season that could be the last Season of the player’s Contract based upon the exercise or non-exercise of an Option or Early Termination Option."

---

as you can see it is never clearly defined when the trade window is reopended in this section of the CBA agreement. conversely, the window for free agents is clearly defined as June 30th.

unfortunately this does not really answer your question, but it does leave the possibility that this loophole still exists.

 

haha...I am guessing that he must be one of the resident capologists then.

I'm sure he will agree then, that there is a distinction made between a s&t and signing a player and then subsequently trading them...hence the Dec 15th window for when a free agent signing is trade eligible.

 

Yes, he is definitely above the Novice level in terms of the NBA CBA.




75. Can a free agent be signed and immediately traded?



75. Can a free agent be signed and immediately traded?

Under no circumstances can a team sign and then trade another team's free agent. But there is a special rule that allows teams to re-sign their own free agents for trading purposes, called the sign-and-trade rule. Under the sign-and-trade rule, the player is re-signed and immediately traded to another team. This is done by adding a clause to the contract which stipulates that the contract is invalid if the player's rights are not traded to the specific team within 48 hours.

A sign-and-trade deal can be made even with players that have been renounced. However, a sign-and-trade deal cannot be made when the player was signed using the Mid-Level, $1 Million or Disabled Player exception. Sign-and-trade deals are only allowed if the contract is for three years or longer (however, only the first season of the contract must be guaranteed).

One complication with sign-and-trade deals is that the signed player can immediately become a BYC player (see question number 72 for more information on BYC), so it's the player's BYC value that must be used when determining whether the trade is allowed.

See question number 79 for more information on how long a team must wait after signing a contract before they can trade a player.

76. Can a team sign a player using the sign-and-trade rule and then say, "Ha ha, we fooled you. We're not trading you!"?

No. A sign-and-trade is treated like a single, atomic transaction, not two separate transactions between which one party can change its mind. The sign-and-trade clause makes the contract invalid if the trade does not take place within 48 hours.

77. Why would teams or players want to do a sign-and-trade?

Teams benefit because it allows them to get something in return for players they would otherwise lose to free agency. Players benefit because they can earn more money and perhaps play for a team they wouldn't otherwise be able to play for. This is because teams can use the Larry Bird exception (as long as the player qualifies) when re-signing players for a sign-and-trade deal. So they can probably offer more money than other teams, which are constrained by the salary cap. And even if the other team can offer the maximum salary to the player, they can only offer 10% raises, while the original team, using the Bird exception, can offer 12.5% raises. So the player makes more money. Also, the sign-and-trade can be made with a team that's capped-out and wouldn't otherwise be able to sign the player.

This last point is very important -- the sign-and-trade rule is a useful tool for teams that are capped-out and unable to offer players large contracts, but want to obtain specific high-priced free agents.

 

aelliot a question for you good sir:

assuming that the cap for next season is somewhere in the ballpark of 57mil, and that going into the offseason the Rockets will have approx. 62.5 on the books...we would need to dump approx. 5.5 mil to get under the cap.

in accordance with the CBA would the following scenario work?


if we were to trade Howard's salary of 6.9 mil to a team substantially under the cap (like Charlotte) for no contract in return (perhaps a 2nd rounder)..we would be nearly 1.5 mil under the cap.

and for the sake of argument...an additional dump of Sura's salary (3.8mil) would take place to another team substantially under the cap (like Atlanta) for a 2nd rounder as well.

at this point we would be 5.3mil under the cap.

as a result we would be able to restructure Bonzi's contract up to the cap threshold of 57mil (+ an additional 100,000).

As a result Bonzi's contract would then be at aprox. 7.6mil and would still be trade eligible.

it sounds rather involved, but this would technically work, correct?

 

d) Except as set forth in Section 8(e) below: (1) no player who signs a Contract as a Free Agent may be traded before the later of (i) three (3) months following the date on which such Contract was signed or (ii) the December 15 of the Salary Cap Year in which such Contract was signed; and (2) no Draft Rookie who signs a Player Contract may be traded before thirty (30) days following the date on which the Contract is signed.

you can trade them...you just have to wait awhile...

 

Sure, but since Deke made significantly less than that this season, he would be a BYC player, making the trade very difficult to execute.

Edit: P.S. -- Good to see you around, Mango.

 

You can trade them, but the time delay essentially kills the original scheme. No one would sign Deke to $20 million in expectation that a trade could be executed on December 15th.

However, a S&T may still work if it is in fact the case that only the 1st year has to be guaranteed. Sign Deke to a 3-year $60 million contract, with only the first year guaranteed and trade him for whatever 5-year, $100 million guaranteed contract somone is looking to unload.

There is one remaining rule that gets in the way, however. The one that says trades that run counter to the spirit of the rules can get axed by the league. There is no way imo the league office allows a scheme like this.

 

Bonzi's contract can be restructured after only one year?

 

NIKEstrad
Good to see you also.

Juan, aelliott and NIKE in the same thread...............Veteran Firepower.

 

assuming the contract was originally no longer than 4 years and you are under the cap, I believe so.

(c) Renegotiations.
No Player Contract may be renegotiated except in accordance with the following:

(1) Subject to Section 7(c)(2) and (3) below, a Player Contract covering a term of four (4) or more Seasons may be renegotiated no sooner than the third anniversary of the signing of the Contract.
(2) Subject to Section 7(c)(3) below, any Player Contract that has been renegotiated in accordance with Section 7(c)(1) above to provide for an increase in Salary or Incentive Compensation in any Salary Cap Year covered by the Contract of more than 8%, or extended in accordance with Section 7(a) or (b) above, may not subsequently be renegotiated until the third anniversary of such Extension or Renegotiation.

(3) Assuming Section 7(c) (1) or (2) above are satisfied, a Team with a Team Salary below the Salary Cap may renegotiate a Player Contract in accordance with the following rules:

(i) Subject to Article II, Section 7, the Renegotiation may provide for additional Regular Salary, Likely Bonuses and/or Unlikely Bonuses for the then-current Salary Cap Year covered by the Contract (the “Renegotiation Season”) that, in the aggregate, would not exceed the Team’s Room at the time of the Renegotiation.

(ii) Every category (Regular Salary, Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses, respectively) that is increased for the Renegotiation Season must also be increased for each of the remaining Seasons of the Contract. For each Season of the Contract after the Renegotiation Season, the player’s additional Regular Salary may increase or decrease over the previous Season’s additional Regular Salary by no more than 10.5% of the additional Regular Salary provided for in the Renegotiation Season. In the event that the Renegotiation Season provides for additional Incentive Compensation, the amount of additional Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses provided for in each Season after the Renegotiation Season may increase or decrease by up to 10.5% of the amount of additional Likely Bonuses and Unlikely Bonuses, respectively, provided for in the Renegotiation Season.

(iii) No Renegotiation may contain a signing bonus, unless the Renegotiation is accompanied by an Extension and the signing bonus would otherwise be permitted under the rules governing the inclusion of signing bonuses in Extensions.

(4) In no event may a Team with a Team Salary at or above the Salary Cap renegotiate a Player Contract.

(5) In no event may a Team and a player renegotiate a Player Contract from March 1 through June 30 of any Salary Cap Year.

 

It's not all that vague. Once a player's team is out, they can be traded as long as they are under contract for next year (not counting options). With this in mind, a guy like Sura (assumed team option) can not be traded. Theoretically, we could swap Kobe for TMac right now (assuming the salaries work).

The reason you don't see a lot of trade movement is that teams want to figure out what they're doing with the draft. There's no benefit to making a trade right now vs. 1 month from now. You'll see a few player moves made around draft time. For instance, the Francis/TMac deal was made on June 29. Part of the reason for that deal being executed then was a larger trade exception created by getting the deal in before the June 30 and the July moratorium.

 

thanks for clearing that up.

it just seems odd that they would allow the opportunity for trades to occur during the playoffs, essentially excluding any team still playing from being eligible...

but at the same time they don't allow free agents to begin signing with teams until june 30th...

 

It'd be simpler than that. If you were able to clear that cap room, a Bonzi renegotiation would more likely involve him opting out and being resigned. Occam's razor.

And I think you're interpreting it wrong. I would read

as only contracts 4 years or longer can be renegotiated (and then only after 3 years).

Coon agrees:

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#52

 

They don't allow free agents to actually begin signing with teams until usually mid July (used to be August, hence the July moratorium).

That's another reason why trades don't occur very often during the playoffs -- if you're trading a player at that time, you're necessarily limiting the demand by allowing fewer teams to make offers. Again, there's no real benefit to trading right now, which is why it is extremely rare.

The league also doesn't like things overshadowing the playoffs themselves. Conversely, if you're a non-playoff team making a deal for a superstar, you get a lot more media attention if there isn't playoff basketball going on.