I watched a couple games last night at a friend's house. He is a premiere baller who does not play anymore. But it is funny how we both watch the same game, yet we measure the team and game successes far differently. Toronto and the Sixers. He of course was all bent up about the Carter versus Iverson matchup. The high flyer Vince versus the piercing knife Allen. I wanted to watch and see if these teams have learned anything about last year and previous year's seasons. Amazing. Iverson gets the blood flowing and my friend is jumping up and down as Iverson bangs away to a 26 point night. I am calmer but still shake my head at Carter's two hander and baby windmill to the tune of 38 points. But the bottom line is: For all the talent that these two teams have, both teams find it hard to win. I see no tangible difference this season. They both have a loing ways to go to get serious. It is almost a contest of highlights and sound bites. A Las Vegas-style attraction and not a sports event between two teams. It shouldn't surprise anyone that Carter gets 38 points but the team loses. His opposite number has been doing that for years. Astonomical personal numbers, but losing team efforts. Honestly, it is fun to watch the numbers roll up. I have been there. I know. But with the experience of players that surrounds both of these guys, someone has to see the obvious. Carter will stuff it all night long for a full contract. Will fill up some seats to be sure. But eventually he will start asking for a trade because the team "doesn't know how to win". They "lack the killer instinct", or "I just want to be on a championship team". Uh, Huh. Heard that before. The problem with all of this is that they both could be on deep playoff bound teams, but these guys can't see that team effort is what makes a championship team. Dishing off, involving team players, and making the flow of the game a five man offensive rotation on the floor. The coaches are just as bad as they draw everyplay with a first option that has .... insert "star highlight sports figure" here, written all over it. The majority of us here have a certain amount of competitive animosity towards particular teams. Including the Utah Jazz. But ask yourself this. The Jazz that threat the West almost every year are there because of ... what?. Not personal highlights and personal stats. TEAM PLAY. Look at other successful teams. The team effort is what seperates them from the flotsum of the league. Right? We have been blessed that we, the Rockets, put out a team concept, an endearing and successful philosophy ... from the owner to the third string waterboy. Personal stats are important only as long as the team is focused and participating in the effort to win. I personally feel that the only seasons where we as a team have floundered, was when we made the team game second to individual attention. Most recently we put the ball and the game in the hands of our stars simply because they were "our stars". RT developed a game plan that myopically forced the first option to two guys, Hakeem and Charles, and two guys only. To add insult to injury it was a one-dimensional low post play. Our team suffered miserably for it. It developed a fractious atmosphere within the family, despite all the smiles and glad-hands for the media. More importantly, we lost the team gametime that builds confidence and cohesion, and that developmental focus away from our "non-star" players might have killed us for years. Depsite this , the injuries to both Hakeem and Charles was the best thing that ever happened to us. This team of talented but unproven kids surprised us all year. They accepted the task. Learned on-the-job. Learned that teamwork wins. Don't get me wrong, we still have stars. We have some real dynamos ready to pounce. But in learning team effort, they have learned some restraint for the good of the team. They still have the spark. They still can blow up. But the team concept has not been lost on them. Steve Francis grew enormously, depite being labelled the next "star". His own words: "I have to learn to be patient. My time will come. It's more important for me to get others involved". And this summer said: " It doesn't matter who makes the basket, just as long as a Rocket makes it." I never want Vince Carter to play on this team. I do not want Iverson to wear the Red Glare or pinstripes. They look good. they sell tickets. But they will not be winners until they learn that there is no consolation in a night filled with great personal stats and a "L" in the team win column. My guess is that they will not learn this for a long time yet. In the meantime I'll take our guys. Because we are going to the playoffs team strong. ------------------ [This message has been edited by oeilpere (edited October 17, 2000).]
Finally, someone who noticed that basketball is a TEAM game. I could not have put it any better, than you so eloquently have, about Iverson and Carter. It is funny you bring this up, last night I watched the Celtics-Hawks game. Walker is even worse than either Iverson or Carter. He is all about numbers. Even Tommy Heinsohn was jumping on Walker. He said when he used to coach, he had a drill where he would make one team of 2 guys pass the ball down the court, while the other team dribbled down the court. This showed them the TEAM concept of basketball, and also moved the ball much faster down the court. I am growing tired of Mobley's dribbling antics. Francis also is dribbling way too much so far this preseason. Passing the ball around makes defenses adjust, thus creating openings for better percentage shots. I'm sure Rudy is trying to teach these guys, but it seems like these new players just want the big contracts and to be on the highlights on ESPN. ------------------ In order to be a success in life, you need 2 things: 1. Don't tell everything you know. [This message has been edited by BobFinn* (edited October 17, 2000).]
While they are very talented players, your assessment is correct Oilly. They have a long way to go before they learn how to win. I believe that the sixers would be such a strong force in the east if Iverson would have altered his game and become a pg. Think of the two headed monster the 6rs would have with an unselfish Iverson AND Larry Hughes in the backcourt. And an excellent pg in Snow to come off the bench. But noooo, they have to trade Hughes for a mediocre SF, a trade which will definently hurt them down the line. Perhaps McGrady wouldn't have left if Carter had shared the ball, and spotlight, more often. Hell, I look at their big men, Oakley, and Willis in particular, and wonder why they have withered in Toronto. I doubt it is solely due to age. Maybe Wilkins will have an impact. I mean, you want the ball in the hands of your best player when the game is on the line, that's why they get paid the big bucks, but when it's not on the line, it is best to make all the players involved in the game. ------------------ There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, lies, and heypeeisms. -DrofDunkingDonuts
The three differences between Steve Francis/Rockets and other "superstars": 1. Steve trusts the Rockets to do what is right. They have proven they will stand by their players if their players stand by them. 2. They have Steve trusts Rudy to do what is right for the team and the player. Including sitting Stevie down if he starts to become so individual it hurts the team. 3. This team knows that they can be successful and have fun, if they play as a team. 'Nuff said.
Couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I'm pretty sure I couldn't state it any better either. But, this makes me think of another prime example of what you're talking about: Shaq. I always said this guy was never going to win anything, despite his ability to dominate his opponents, because he was too selfish a player. I was sure Kobe was going to be exactly the same kind of player and so the Lakers would go nowhere (much to my delight). Then, Shaq learned how to be more team oriented and it got him and his team over the hump. Hakeem and Clyde were dominating players but they always looked for the best option on offense - even if they were just the decoy to get another player open. They knew what they could do but also knew that, without their teammates, it wouldn't be enough. Come to think of it, Akeem was somewhat of a selfish player and had limited success until later in his career when he learned how to be a team player and won championships. Enter Charles Barkley. I love the guy but I always considered that trade suspect because I saw him as too much of a me-first kind of player to get it done. The Rockets broke up the "team" to bring in a great individual player. Charles' offensive style resulted in his teammates standing around too much and not getting involved. But, i digress... Iverson and Carter are far too self-absorbed to have any real success in this league. It remains to be seen if they will see the light before they start to lose their edge physically. If they do, watch out! I would absolutely hate to have either of them in a Rockets jersey in their current state of mind, though. I am very thankful that Steve is more concerned with winning than just strutting his stuff on the court. Rudy T definitely deserves some credit for fostering that type of mentality in his players - from Dream to Steve to newcomer Mo. My hope is that Rudy, Carroll and Les will quit with the roster overhauls of the past and let this team develop into a TEAM. But that's just my opinion... I could be wrong. (d.miller) ------------------
The essence of a superstar player is the ability to make both your team better and also make your teamates better. Carter probably still has time to work this out and as some already said if he had already worked it out Tracey wouldn't have left. As for Iverson, he sems to have embraced the team concept at the defensive end, but on offense he seems 100% sure that the only way he can contribute is by scoring with the ball. ------------------ www.NOPostCount.com
MickeyFin wrote: " ... I'm sure Rudy is trying to teach these guys ... " A couple of things: 1. RT has a new committment to team first, and this does not mean he won't let them play some razzle dazzle. He allows some shenanigans only if it is not predominant. And, isolated, sporadic displays of individualism will be allowed as long as it does not interfere with the focus of team play. He preaches this endlessly. yet he sees the importance of player effort being rewarded. The guys you mentioned (Steve and Cat) will be permitted to have occasional lapses of focus. 2. The coaches have to take some heat on the team wins/performance focus being replaced by "15 second highlight" superstar spotlight. I have great respect for both Larry Brown and Lenny Wilkens, but if neither of these guys can sell the team concept, all the accolades and historic coaching ability in the world will not give them a successful year. CriscoGreasco wrote: " ... (what a) monster the 6rs would have (been) with an unselfish Iverson AND Larry Hughes in the backcourt ... and an excellent pg in Snow to come off the bench. ..." That is too right. Those three would have been a formidable tandem in any combination. With a mere modicum of cooperation and minimal team involvement they would have moved the team towards some respectable team play. And surprise! surprise!, they would be years ahead of where they are now. " ... I mean, you want the ball in the hands of your best player when the game is on the line, that's why they get paid the big bucks, but when it's not on the line, it is best to make all the players involved in the game ..." I couldn't agree more. If you asked any coach: ... would you rather have two or three, or hell, four options on an outlet pass with the game on the line .... or would you want just that one guy you been going to all year long? That same guy who not only you and your team know is going to get the ball, but every animal in the free world knows who that is. Would you like to have some options, coach? You live by the one sided blade, you die by the one sided blade. [This message has been edited by oeilpere (edited October 17, 2000).]
I thought MJ was a selfish player early in his career and until he figured out that it takes teammates to win he was a one-man show. Carter is still young in the NBA but Iverson, IMO, is is old enough that he should have learned. MJ was still a one man show in crunch-time but he was able to figure out how to best use his teammates (give Kerr, Paxson open shots, let Horace dunk, make sure Pip never was ina pressure situation, etc). I still believe Carter can change. If he will I don't know. Part of it is his coach and teammates but the bigger thing is his inner drive wanting to be a winner rather than trying to be the best player all the time. We may see Francis go through this same type of thing. Stevie at some point will figure out that he can dominate a game. Hopefully Stevie will keep the goal in mind (winning) rather than trying to make the Sportscenter pLay of the Day every game. ------------------
Great post Pops! To be fair to Iverson however...their offense all revolves around him shooting. Look at their front lines offense and it is PAINFULLY lame. Ratliff is a great defender, but not a scorer. Geiger is...well...he is Geiger. Enough said. Also...at point, they have a defensive stud in Snow...but he has very little offense also. Put Francis on that team...and I think he'd shoot just as much as Iverson.... ------------------
I see where everyone is coming from here, but to play Devil's advocate for Iverson, he really wants to win and he wants to do it in Philly. He can't help it that the rest of his team outside of Ratliffe sucks! Geiger isn't going to do much except for piss off Reggie Miller when they play the Pacers. Their team reminds me of the Nets years ago...one outspoken personality(Iverson/J. Williams) and a bunch of misfits. IMO Iverson isn't what we all make him out to be, he just doesn't have any other choice but to carry his team. I mean what have the Sixers done to make the team better??? As for Carter, well he's happy right now being the center of attention. He'd rather become be plastered on posters and magazine covers and make stupid faces after a dunk than actually try and make his team better. Wait until the losing catches up with him and reality smacks him in the face. He'll change his game or become the NBA's perennial loser. Luckily for us we have Francis, who not only says he wants to make the team better and win, but actually goes out and tries to do it. ------------------ Too often, we lose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and pimp-slap the mother****** upside the head!
