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Put Jalen Green in the MIDDLE of the floor... as PG or otherwise

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by JayZ750, Nov 1, 2021.

  1. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    I mentioned in the game thread last night when it was over I'd rather see Green at point and KPJ at SG.
    KP has more turnovers than assists. Green can't shoot at the moment. Why not switch them?

    But whether you switch them or not, Green needs to be operating more from the middle of the floor and less from the wing. He seems to struggle a bit from that wing. He's actually better at the wing if he doesn't get a pick, it seems. Whereas he seems to do better from the middle. He has a nice assist to CWood starting with a PnR off the middle last night in the second half.

    Conversely, KPJ has been operating primarily out of the middle, and its just a massive amount of dribbling to nowhere for the most part, with a pick or not. I actually think KPJ would be better off the wing, where its less about straight line speed (what Jalen is good at, what KPJ is less so) and KPJ can better use his size/bulk, etc.

    I also know that KPJ has a tighter handle in general than Jalen, but it doesn't seem to matter much - he still is turning the ball over at ridiculous levels. And just as Jalen seems more comfortable in halfcourt at the top of the key, he also seems more comfortable as a ballhandler when he gets the out let and pushes as opposed to when he comes of some rub screen where he's facing backwards (I f'ing HATE HATE HATE this play lol) again on the wing.

    Moreover... here are his summer league highlights. He has a few ok wing action, but its crazy how much better he looks operating the top of the key.

     
  2. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    Such a weird idea wanting to put the worst player on the court as the focal point of the team. I mean, it would help a tank, but I don't think we need any help with that.

    Honestly Green belongs on the bench right now and guys like Sengun and KMJ should be seeing more playing time.
     
  3. Kevooooo

    Kevooooo Member

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    I thought this kid was supposed to be good off ball? I want to see him coming off screens for quick shots, ala Ray Allen. I worry about his form though. That elbow tucked out means he is going to have to use more energy for shots and it’s more motion in his mechanics making it harder to replicate.
     
  4. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!
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    He dribbles the ball in front of his body - his handles are average at best - just put him as a SG with someone that can run the point - like Wall or Augustine.....let him get more time as the focus of the offense.

    He and KPJ both need complimentary players to get better, they are in each others way.

    DD
     
  5. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    KPJ is our worst player right now... and I don't even think its close.. even recognizing Green is horrible. KPJ is our PG in charge of setting up the offense. He has the highest usage of regular rotation players. He can't stop turning the ball over. Which is the teams biggest problem BY FAR. He has a 30.9% turnover ratio. Which is insanely bad. To put it in perspective, Harden was never higher than 20% in his time in Houston. Russ has never had a season higher than 18%. These are two of the worst turnover machines in history. Jalen/s TO% btw is sitting at 12.7%.

    Jalen isn't the only one impacted by KPJs horribleness. The entire team is suffering.

    Beyond all that, they're horrible anyway. They need to get Green feeling more comfortable. He clearly feels more comfortable operating at the top middle than on the wing. They need to get Green to stop turning the ball over.

    They can keep running out there doing the same thing over and over again, or try something different. ANd if something different ends up being worse, try something different again.
     
  6. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!
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    Yes, agree, Jay - I would start by playing the man that you are paying 45m a year to play PG.....

    Just play Wall and let him teach some of the young guys.

    DD
     
  7. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    He's not though, and it's not terribly close.

    Green has the 2nd worst TS% on the entire team and the 3rd worst eFG%.....and offense is the thing he's best at.

    Now sure, KPJ hasn't been playing well, but just check their on-off numbers, Jalen Green is a -20 to the Rockets' offense when he's on the court and a +15 to the opposing team's offense when he's on the court.

    KPJ is also bad being a -9 to the Rockets' offense when on the court but that's mitigated a bit by him being a -6 to the opposing team's offense when on the court. Overall, still bad, still a net negative, but nowhere near the absolute disaster Green is when he's on the court.

    So you kind of have it backwards, it's Green that is so terrible he's dragging the entire team down, not KPJ. Green needs to come off the bench till he learns how to play basketball.
     
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  8. AroundTheWorld

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    KPJ also has really bad FG and FT %%. Just kind of the opposite of a Morey-type player - super inefficient. He also almost never finds Sengun.

    Sengun with a PG like Chris Paul would be unbelievable.

    KPJ seems like a good kid who loves Houston and who is talented and has good size for a guard, but he is just so inefficient.
     
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  9. jordnnnn

    jordnnnn Member

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    Team Net Rating w/player on floor
    Porter : -8.7
    Green : -17.7

    Total +/-
    Porter : -38
    Green : -77

    Win Shares
    Porter : -0.2
    Green : -0.1

    Box +/-
    Porter : -7.0
    Green : -5.5

    VORP
    Porter : -0.2
    Green : -0.2

    Raptor Rating
    Porter : -5.0
    Green : -7.7

    WAR
    Porter : -0.2
    Green : -0.5

    Player Impact Estimate
    Porter : 6.7
    Green : 6.7

    TPA
    Porter : -26.77
    Green : -22.57

    PER(barf)
    Porter : 8.5
    Green : 8.2

    EFG% / TS%
    Porter : 50.8 / 52.3
    Green : 41.0 / 43.5

    I think there is a strong argument that these guys have earned co worst players on the team awards. I don’t think there really can be a claim made that one has been clearly better than the other. They both have been pretty equally awful.
     
  10. AroundTheWorld

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    Do you have these for Sengun?
     
  11. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    I'd be fine with "co-worst" because even though I think KPJ has been better, he's still playing terribly.

    The guard spots are clearly the weakest on the roster.
     
  12. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!
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    Huh, now who here has been saying they don't fit together? That they are essentially the same player, both need the ball, and both are SGs who look for their own over being a good team player?

    IMHO, and I will say it again - they should be limited in playing together until they get some success and understanding of how to play the NBA game - don't start them together....they are getting in each other's way, and it is slowing the development of both of them down at the same time.....

    SIlas can fix this......but I am not sure he knows how.

    DD
     
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  13. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    On/off number are useless right now... imo. They play with each other, without each other, etc. It's a 5 person game. Those 2 obviously start and play together A LOT. So the ENTIRE difference in their on/off numbers is in the few minutes a game they aren't playing together... so who are they playing with, etc. Like Alpi typically comes in when Jalen is subbed in the first quarter. I don't know Alpi's on/off numbers (and again, don't particularly care), but assuming they are better than the starters, well that has an impact this early in the season. I know for example Jalen has played 7 more minutes with Theis than KPJ has so far.

    But again, as has been noted many times by those of us who don't care about the score... WE DON'T CARE ABOUT THE SCORE!

    AND, on top of all that... the fact that the both suck... is WHY something needs to be changed.
     
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  14. apollo33

    apollo33 Member

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    How is Green dragging anything. Most of the time Green just sits in the corner anyway not doing much.

    Also KPJ dribbles and throws errand passes whether or not Green is on the court. I know you have a love boner for KPJ and hate boner for Green. But I think it's okay to realize they suck independent to each other most of the time.

    However just by the nature of KPJ having the ball in his hands most of the time, he is responsible for most of the stuff that happens on offense good or bad.

    As bad as green have been, it's mostly just his missing 3 pointers, otherwise he will get an occasional drive or two and not much else.
     
  15. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    His on-off numbers say he's a -2.7 to the offensive rating and a -11.7 to the opponent's offensive rating meaning a +9.3 overall. I'm not sure anyone else on the team is better than that.
     
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  16. Ramo$e

    Ramo$e Member

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    Green was best when he wasn't deferring to anyone. He will get his other teammates involved but he needs the ball.
     
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  17. Ramo$e

    Ramo$e Member

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    You are delusional.
     
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  18. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Agreed, he's not close to a PG. He's a SG/SF who can create sometimes.
    EDIT: thought you were saying Porter, so comment above is about Porter.

    Deferring or not, Green seems to prefer operating out of the center. This makes intuitive sense. His athletic advantage is in his straight line speed.

    We have to stop getting him the ball in the corners, especially cause their spacing is so bad at it anyway... only EG has been decent at it this year, and that's just due to his experience and ability to bully-ball a bit at his size while also hitting the 3. It's not down to good spacing on offense or anything.
     
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  19. Rocketeer

    Rocketeer Contributing Member

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    KPJ isn’t our worst player. He’s our worst point guard and it is affecting everyone’s play including Jalen. Green has been bad but his problems are being compounded by lack of PG. I think having two young guards learning the ropes at the same time, especially PG, has been a bad idea. We need a real floor general that knows how to settle the offense and knows when to get the youngsters the ball in positions to succeed. I feel too many guys that aren’t good enough, are out there trying to make it happen. I’m tired of seeing Wood trying bring the ball down every time thinking he’s a point guard.
     
    #19 Rocketeer, Nov 1, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2021
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  20. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Contributing Member

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    What Green and this team needs is a true point guard, a better offensive system to play in, or both. I prefer the first one because Porter can still be a fine player but being a point guard right now is not the answer.
     

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