Preseason pattern: 5-man or iso?

One of the things I noticed wasn't the tendency to go to ISO based on play calling but rather on personnel. In the second half of the last game, there were a lot of young guys playing - Brown, Nachbar, Maddux - and guys like Rice and Taylor coming back from injury.

I got the sense that they are still learning the offense and that it is difficult to run it with guys like Brown or Maddux at the helm. In fact, I watched Mobley bring the ball up on several occassions.

Seems more like personnel rather than play calling.

 

The bad thing about either is, its hard to win playoff games with either offense.

 

I just want to say Kudos to Easy for not calling it a "motion offense." Rudy has denied that phrase, so we should, too.

 

Rudy T has been accused of not having any MOVEMENT IN HIS SETS in the past. The NBA changed the rules because of Barkleys slow down. Back to the question..In both games, both coaches subsituted liberally ..Offensive continuity was near zero in the second half, more like Helter Skelter..

 

Im suprised Rudy actually changed his Xs and Os on offense. He beat that offense we used with Hakeem right into the ground and only got away from it after Hakeem left. If you think about it, if Ming develops into a dominant center, i would not at all be suprised to see Rudy revert back to the same type of offense that we won two titles with.

I dont think ISOs are effective at all, unless you have a player with good passing skills.

Not sure about this whole "motion" (sorry hpartner) offense. I think of that and it reminds me of the Paul Westhead led Denver Nugget teams of the 80s. It sounds like what Rudy has put in place is nothing like that though. Just hate the term "motion" (sorry hpartner).

 

Really?

So movement hindered how far the Nets got in the playoffs?

There's only one Shaq and the Lakers needed a poor rebounding decision by Vlade and a prayer by Horry to overcome the movement oriented Kings in game 6.

Sorry, I'm inclined to disagree with your conclusion.

Also disagree about your Yao Ming comment. Hakeem was a back to the basket classic low post type player. Yao Ming is the new breed of center than can face up and has range out to the 3pt line.

IMHO, with Cuttino and Steve the Rockets will never be an inside-outside team like the Rockets were during the Olajuwon years. They will take advantage of Yao's range and passing skills.

 

The Nets got far in the playoffs 1) Because their conference is weak (if they were in the West, would they have gotten past round 1 or 2?)
2) Jason Kidd is the most equipped player in that conference to make his teamates better. Which he did.

Still, the Lakers ultimately beat the Kings even though they were down a couple of games. And Horrys prayer? A direct result of the type of offense that the Lakers run (same reason he hit the big shots when he was with us).

The Kings "motion" offense broke down at the end of games into more of a "dribble the 24 second clock down while the rest of of the team stands around trying to hold on to the lead" type of setup. The Kings beat themselves because they took themselves out of their own offensive philosophy.

Thats why movement offenses, in my opinion anyway, are not all they are cracked up to be. Same theory behind a fastbreak offense. If you have a lead late in the game, you change your offense to more of a ball control setup in order to hold onto leads which nullifys what got them there in the first place. Thats why the Kings won during the regular season, but ultimately lost to the Lakers.

 

Im not saying Rudy will change his offense, but I think he should. You know why?

1) If you look at all the past NBA champions, they all won a title based on one of two premises: Either they had a player with great court vision and passing skills which made his teamates better or they had a great big man who commanded double teams which allowed his teamates wide open jumpers, which in turn, also made his teamates better.

Im sure there are a few exceptions to this rule. But if you look at history, what I said is very true. The way I see it, the Rockets don't have a player with great passing skills or court vision. Some people say Francis does, but I do not agree. Can he develop this as he matures? Personally, I think you either have it or you don't. If Francis does not ever develop these skills, then in my eyes, Ming will have to lead us to the promise land and the way he can do that is, by developing the type of big man game that commands double teams. Ming will be able to make the rest of his teamates better by using his passing skills out of the double team (from all accounts, he already has the passing skills). Francis is great, but he doesnt have the type of game right now that makes his teamates better and I dont think he ever will.

It all rides on Ming. Thats what makes his arrivle so exciting. Oh the possibilities!!!

 

Excuse me? Your original statement was exactly:
"The bad thing about either is, its hard to win playoff games with either offense."

The fact that the Nets made the NBA Finals and the Kings made the WC Finals totally refutes the statement that it is hard to win playoff games. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that if Shaq were injured during the last playoffs, it would have been the Kings and Nets in the Finals.

If an inside postup game was all that was needed, Malone and the Jazz would be there instead of the Mavs and Kings.

Why don't you just come out and admit that Olajuwon is your idol and that's the only game you understand?

 

Let me see if I understand this. A championship is either won with a dominant inside presence or a dominant outside presence...duh...well...yes, what else is there?

Larry Bird won championships with Robert Parrish at center. Micheal Jordan won them with Bill Cartwright, Bill Wennington and others whose names I have long since forgotten. I don't think Bill Lambier exactly equates to Olajuwon or Shaq but Isiah won championships with him at center.

You have some sort of sort-sighted fixation on the inside postup game in an era when Shaq is the only dominant inside presence and the new NBA zones are even starting to wear on him.

I will repeat again because you must have missed it the first time - Yao Ming is not a back to the basket postup player. The Rockets will use Yao's strengths (shooting distance, passing ability, height advantage to bailout errant drives to the basket) by running a high post offense with cuts off of the post.

You may feel free to post your graduate school thesis here in response to my last two posts, but the current NBA trend is away pound it inside Olajuwon or Barkley type game. You don't have to look any further than the rule changes of the last 5 years. Take it to the bank.

 

Lambier was miles better than Luc Longley...But you always had the feeling Jordan would have won with even, say, Jason Collier at center.

 

Robbert Horry's prayer? Man, Robbert Horry game winners are as rare as Freethrows nowadays. When teams play the Lakers, and they're up by 2, and Lakers have possesion, they don't LOOK happy, because tey KNOW Horry will hit it. When you play the Lakers, you have to be up by 4 in the last possesion. I just can't get over how that guy does it, but he does it often, and it's obviously not a fluke.


But codell is sort of right. The Lakers beat both the Kings and the Nets. They've beaten the Kings for the past 3 seasons. it doesn't seem to be working.


But then again, when you have Kobe and Shaq, you can't really compare it wiht the rest of the league.

 

That is soooooo wrong, don't insult a fellow aussie

for all his defiencies Longley played a perfect role with the Bulls, he could pass the ball well, set a mean pick, could nail the wide open stuff when really needed and ran his position perfectly in the triangle, which for me isn't just x and os and requires some thought on the court. And don't forget his best skill clogging the lane, also remember he had to guard Kemp and Malone in consecutive years for parts during the finals and did an adequate job not bad for some much larger and slower.

talk to me when Collier gets some consistent minutes

btw Longley has ballooned in retirement, he has more chins than Al Roker.

 

Then perhaps I should have said "win an NBA title" instead of "win in the playoffs". Would that make you feel better?
Winning is a relative term. When I say win, I mean win it all, not just one or two playoff series.

Again, when I say a true "motion" offense, Im referring to the type of offense similar to what the Nuggets ran in the 80s. Thats a true motion offense. You need to go back and read my posts. Not what the Kings run and not what the Nets run. They made the playoffs but never went anywhere. And when I say "win in the playoffs", I mean win in an NBA championship. Perhaps I shouldnt have used so broad of a term. So Ill rephrase: Teams do not win NBA titles without 1) A player with great passing skills and court vision who makes his teamates better or 2) A great post up player who commands double teams which results in wide open jump shots which also make his teamates better.

Again #1) I would not consider what the Nets run to be a motion offense. In fact, its very similar to what Phoenix ran when Kidd was with them. The difference was that the Nets surrounded Kidd with slightly better players than Phoenix did and also playing in the East helped them. #2) The Kings do have a movement oriented office and yes they did win in the regular season and yes they did win in the playoffs. But their offense broken down out of necessaty because they were in the lead.

So the Jazz have not been there? Hmmmmm. Do a little research of NBA history. Malone and the Jazz HAVE been there. The same way Hakeem and the Rockets HAVE been there. The reason the Jazz arent there anymore is 1) In the last few years the Jazz have failed to surround Malone with shooters that can prove they can hit wide open jumpers in the playoffs (a la and Horrry, Bibby, Fisher, etc.) and 2) Malone is not double teamed, because his skills have slightly diminished, as often as he was during their NBA finals run. Therefore, their shooters not only don't get as many wide open shots, they have to shoot more than they used to with a man in their face. The EXACT same thing happened to the Rockets and Hakeem.

Hakeem is in fact one of my idols but that does not make my thinking narrowminded as you would like to think for some reason. Just so you know, Hakeem nor Rudy originated the "throw it into the big man, wait for the double, and pass it out to your wide open shooters" type of offense. That was done long before our teams of the mid 90s and it will be done long after because its one of the basis for success in this league.

Before I watched the Rockets win titles, I watched Philly, Boston, La Lakers, Detroit and Chicago all win titles also. And they all had one of the two things I talked about (or both). That is indisputable. I am a fan of the NBA AND the Rockets. I dont just look on paper to conclude why we will or will not succeed. I look at the offensive and defensive schemes they run to utilize those players skill. Taking all of our players skill levels as a whole and as it stands going into the season, I think Rudy is onto something that can help us get to the playoffs. My whole point being, we can make the playoffs with a "motion" or movement oriented offense, but I do not feel we are going to ultimately win an NBA title with that type of offense and Im basing that on what Ive seen throughout NBA history and the playoffs.

 

Which Jordan team had either? Jordan isn't an assist man and neither was Pippen. Maybe you need to expound on that statement of fact...

 

Where the heck did I ever say an outside presence? Did you just make this up or what? I said "great court vision or passing skills" not an "outside presence". There is a big difference between the two.

You have got to be kidding. Ok, Ill give you that Parrish was a good inside player, but he was not dominant. Alot of his shots came as a direct result of Larry Bird's "court vision and passing skills". The celtics won because of Bird, not Parrish.

Laimbeer? He was an effective weapon on that team,but he had very little to do with the Pistons dominance (not saying he didnt matter). Please. He wasnt anywhere near a dominant center and he certainly wasnt one you had to double. He was a jump shooting center pretty much. Cartwright? Bill Wennington? Luc Longley? I really cant believe you are using these guys in your argument. Parrish, Laimbeer, Cartwright, Wennington and Longley were all better players because of Bird, Thomas and Michael Jordan's court vision and passing skills. Do you not see this?

Sighted fixation? Not quite. But Im open to you finding another way that teams won NBA titles. Hmmmmmmmm.

How have you made this decision that Yao isnt a post player? If hes not, then we need to stick him at PF. Im not inclined to agree with your assesment becaue its without basis. When I see highlights of Yao or watched him play at the WC, I saw him work on the low block often. Teams arent going to double him when hes standing 12-15 out on the perimeter and if that holds true, then what the heck good are his passing skills? You say you want him out there so Steve can kick it back out on a adrive when defenses collapse. Are you insane? Are you looking for Francis to average 10 turnovers a game instead of his normal 5, which is bad enough already???

Seems to me the Lakers win with the same premise (and no, not saying that what the Lakers run is exactly the same as what the Rockets won) that the Rockets did. Some trends just never go away. I wonder why. Hmmmmmmm.

 

Rice,

Gimme a break. I never said a great assist man, I said a player with great court vision or passing skills. Theres a big difference. Jordan had both and made his teamates better because of it.

BTW,

Dearrock and I set the terms of the bet. You in?