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Poll: Top Pick or Play-in Tourney?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Sweet Lou 4 2, Dec 4, 2021.

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Which would make you happier to see happen at the end of the season?

  1. Rockets get a top 5 pick in the draft

  2. Rockets make the play-in tourney

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  1. harold bingo

    harold bingo Sengun Only Fan
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    There is no meaningful distinction between these two things. No players or coaches are "losing on purpose", it doesn't exist. All "tanking" is done so that you can win in the future.
     
  2. IslandB.O.I.

    IslandB.O.I. Member

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    I want the Rockets to lose enough games to have the best chance to have the number 1 pick. Until the games actually start. Once the games start, I want them to win. I just can’t actively root for them to lose while the games are going on.
     
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  3. conquistador#11

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    Who might fall and be best available with the 13th pick?
    Ugh some of the mock drafts have the first 8 out of 12 picks being SGs or PG/SG combos.
    Nikola is the only pick that would make sense around 13th. He can be a nice player and good insurance if Wood becomes too expensive.

    2022 line up
    Sengun/ Nikola
    Wood/Nikola
    Tate/Martin
    Green/ Green's BFF
    Porter/ Vet PG
     
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  4. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    Teams have played lineups with the sole intention of losing to improve draft status (this use to be only at the end of the year). This mostly happens at the front office level. The word tanking originates from boxers and other athletes losing on purpose (or shaving points) for the purposes of winning bets. If you can't see a distinction between tanking and rebuilding, then you should say a team is rebuilding, and not tanking.
     
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  5. harold bingo

    harold bingo Sengun Only Fan
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    If the rockets trade Christian Wood and Eric Gordon for picks and salary filler, knowing that this will result in them winning less games, but also resulting in helping their rebuild, is this rebuilding or tanking?
     
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  6. xaos

    xaos Member
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    I know you said "not saying we have OKC's big 3" but there's really almost nothing that is comparable to that OKC team except for the fact that there was a group of young talented kids on their rookie contract and some vets getting paid either peanuts or OK money. Even if that is your example, Theis would be Perkins/Collison, not Wood
     
  7. xaos

    xaos Member
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    When the near term goal is to win a ring, I 110% agree. The GM/Owner needs to let the coach coach.

    But, probably every single team that is moving in the direction of accumulating high-end draft picks, there needs to be alignment. Perfect example: Wall not playing so KPJ/Green can get more reps is not purely a "let's go win!" coaching strategy. It's coach/GM/Owner alignment. The alignment is probably delivered in less specific terms though (ex: we want to develop our young guys vs play xyz player 35 minutes a game).

    Edit: I might be misunderstanding you though
     
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  8. NewAge

    NewAge Member

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    The Wall situation is weird, it’s not really a rotation-decision, the guy is just mothballed… I think it was a bad decision, but at least I don’t consider it coach interference.

    In this situation, I am talking about pressures to start Green and Theis. The indication (unconfirmed) is that it comes from the exec suite. That’s bush league.

    But also, I am talking in general about culture setting. Culture of competence, competitiveness, accountability, meritocracy based on winning contribution, bunker mentality. Tanking and other front office agendas destroy all of this.
     
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  9. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    “Tanking” is a thing and it is kind of different. Making roster and PT decisions with a specific development goal for existing players that comes at the expense of winning games isn’t “tanking” but making roster moves that are much more done in order to improve draft position than a specific development plan is tanking. The latter happens and was pretty egregious with the Process Sixers.
     
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  10. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Easter Egg Hunter - Tell me why? نحن عائلة

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    It is conspicuous that Theis, Tate, GMat, Wood, House Jr, Augustin are being used.

    And Gordon.
     
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  11. harold bingo

    harold bingo Sengun Only Fan
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    I don't really agree that the sixers did anything outside of a development goal for their young players. Looking back on it now it might sound silly to say "they were trying to develop Michael Carter Williams and Mo Harkless" but that's only because we know what those players turned into. At the time those guys were their Jalen Green and Sengun.
     
  12. Tuckankhamun

    Tuckankhamun Member

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    Pistons said the same thing about Josh Smith, thinking he would be the missing piece in their rebuild.

    Everyone started playing well when the spacing improved, why wreck a thing that's working?
     
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  13. mfastx

    mfastx Member

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    Gotcha - no worries! I do not like losing and these last two seasons have been painful having watched since 2002... I just think a top 5 draft pick would be more beneficial to this team given the circumstances than being the 10th seed.
     
  14. xaos

    xaos Member
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    It's a shame we didn't keep Levert to help our rebuild. We could've been the Indiana Pacers whose record is better than ours.
     
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  15. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    If you think the Sixers weren't tanking, that is your opinion. They must have really loved them some 2nd round picks.

    So when Mark Cuban said they were intentionally losing games, I guess he was lying, too. Maybe that was why the fine was so low.
     
    #335 Joe Joe, Dec 7, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  16. harold bingo

    harold bingo Sengun Only Fan
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    I noticed you dodged the question I asked you, but whatever.

    What are you talking about? I never said the sixers weren't tanking, I said that all of their moves benefit the development of their young players. But it also gave them a higher draft position. That's the entire point I'm trying to make, as I said to begin with, there is no meaningful distinction between tanking and "organic losing" or rebuilding or whatever you want to label it. And no, Cuban wasn't lying. He didn't really say that, his exact quote was "it is in our best interest to lose games" and he was correct.

    Any GM of a team in the beginning of their rebuilding phase would rather lose than win, like Cuban, they want higher draft picks. The sixers did, Cuban acknowledged this, and it's what the rockets are doing now. If the rockets trade Wood, that is arguably "so they can develop Sengun!" but it's also going to make us win less games. The team is knowingly making a move that will result in less wins. The same goes for trading Eric Gordon. The same goes for sitting John Wall. It's all rebuilding and it's all tanking.

    How do you feel about this quote from Tilman? Is this good old fashioned respectable rebuilding or is this tanking?
     
  17. Easy

    Easy Very Calm
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    It seems that we are now arguing about the semantic of tanking. I personally believe that there is a difference between tanking and rebuilding although the two goals don't have to be mutually exclusive.

    Let's use an example: Eric Gordon is having fun hitting all those 3pt shots.

    1. If you shut him down because you don't want to win too many games, you are tanking.

    2. If you shut him down because you want to give the young guys more minutes, you are rebuilding but is a bit shady because there might not be that many young guys who deserve the minutes even when you are rebuilding.

    3. If you trade him for some high ceiling potentials (picks and/or young players), you are rebuilding.

    4. If you trade him for some trash just so you can lose more games, you are tanking.
     
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  18. harold bingo

    harold bingo Sengun Only Fan
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    I think your examples help me illustrate my opinion on this subject, I'll try to explain the way I'm looking at it -

    1 and 2 aren't mutually exclusive, any GM in the league is going to see both angles, you can't isolate the motivation one way or another. In any real scenario both of those would be contributing factors in the decision to shut down Eric Gordon. You could never say its 1 and not 2, or 2 and not 1. They would take it all into consideration to make the decision.

    Same goes for 3 and 4. If you trade him, it's never going to be for "some trash", you're going to try to get the maximum valuable available. Losing more games will be a benefit, and that will be part of the calculus, and so will the return on the trade. Anything you get in return is going to be a piece you can use to improve the team, whether its a pick or a player, these are all assets.

    That's why I don't think theres a difference, no matter what you're doing it's all blended together.
     
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  19. NewAge

    NewAge Member

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    Good posts!
    Here's my take:
    1. Shutting EGO down a la Wall (or Al Horfort) is tanking, but is less deplorable than limiting his minutes. These shut-downs are some weird new fad that is trying to do tanking in a somewhat more respectable way that is not as damaging to culture and morale as limiting minutes of productive players and promoting garbage players.
    2. I am with @harold bingo that 1 and 2 are a bit hard to distinguish. Limiting a good old player to play a bad old player is not something that I have really seen. If you limit him, most likely you're playing some young'uns
    3. and 4. are also hard to distinguish. If you're rebuilding, you're taking the best deal out there that skews to young talent/picks. Hard to imagine taking under-market deal just to be bad, for longer
     
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  20. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member

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    same result on twitter:
     
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