Political Lobby Systems....the Chink in the US Armor?

the only orginaization which don't pay tax is AIPAC !! the biggest orginaization that gives aid to isreal in U.S !!!

anyway . your topic is the best topic i've ever seen here in this board !!!

 

Please give examples of this supposedly-powerful Jewish lobby in the US. Cabinet members, by definition cannot be lobbiests. And I doubt that Clinton's ex-cabinet members have any influence on Bush's foreign policy.

I'd also like to see some example of the U.S. policy decisions that were influenced by these lobbiests. How did the "Israeli lobby" get us kicked out of the UNHRC or influence the decision not to attend the Human Rights Conference? Any links to back up these assertions?

You're walking an awfully thin line, F.D. Kahn. All I see are the names of some former cabinet members, and the inference that their ethnic and/or religious origin (you didn't specify what you meant by "Jewish") made them suspect. How is that not anti-semetic?

 

You know the warning sign is "My best friend is [fill in the blank]".

 

AIPAC has actually fallen a few slots in the past couple of years as Fortune now has them ranked as fourth in terms of the most powerful lobbying groups.

And I don't know if ALL of Clinton's cabinet was Jewish, but I do know that he had a disproportinate number of Jews (considering that Jews make up less than 3% of the American population) in his administration:

Madeleine Albright
Secretary of State
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Robert Rubin
Secretary of Treasury
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William Cohen
Secretary of Defense
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Dan Glickman
Secretary of Agriculture
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George Tenet
CIA Chief
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Samuel Berger
Head National Security Council
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Evelyn Lieberman
Deputy Chief of Staff
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Stuart Eizenstat
Under Secretary of State

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Charlene Barshefsky
U.S. Trade Representative
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Susan Thomases
Aide to First Lady
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Joel Klein
Assistant Attorney General
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Gene Sperling
National Economic Council
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Ira Magaziner
National Health Care
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Peter Tarnoff
Deputy Secretary of State
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Alice Rivlin
Ecomomic Advisory
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Janet Yellen
Chairwoman, National Economic Council
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Rahm Emanuel
Policy Advisor
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Doug Sosnik
Counsel to President
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Jim Steinberg
Deputy to National Security Chief
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Jay Footlik
Special Liason to the Jewish Community
(no other group has a special liason)
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Robert Nash
Personal Chief
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Jane Sherburne
President's Lawyer
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Mark Penn
Asia Expert to NEC
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Sandy Kristoff
Health Care Chief
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Robert Boorstin
Communications Aide
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Keith Boykin
Communications Aide
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Jeff Eller
Special Assistant to Clinton
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Tom Epstein
Health Care Adviser
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Judith Feder
National Security Council
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Richard Feinberg
Assistant Secretary Veterans
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Hershel Gober
Food and Drug Administration
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Steve Kessler
White House Counsel
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Ron Klein
Assistant Secretary Education
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Madeleine Kunin
Communications Aide
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David Kusnet
Dept. AIDS Program
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Margaret Hamburg
Dir. Press Conferences
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Many Grunwald
Liason to Jewish Leaders
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Karen Adler
Dir. State Dept. Policy
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Samuel Lewis
National Security Council
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Stanley Ross
National Security Council
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Dan Schifter
Director Peace Corps.
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Eli Segal
Deputy Chief of Staff
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Alan Greenspan
Chairman of Federal Reserve Bank
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Robert Weiner
Drug Policy Coordinator
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Jack Lew
Deputy Director Management and Budget

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James P. Rubin
Under Secretary of State
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David Lipton
Under Secretary of The Treasury
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Lanny P. Breuer
Special Counsel to The President
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Richard Holbrooke
Special Representative to NATO
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Kenneth Apfel
Chief of Social Security
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Joel Klein
Deputy Whlte Honse Counsel

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Sidney Blumenthal
Speclal Advisor to Pirst Lady
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David Kessler
Chief of Food & Drug Adininistration
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Seth Waxman
Acting Solicitor General
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Mark Penn
Presidential Pollster
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Dennis Ross
Special Middle East Representative
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Howard Shapiro
- General Counsel for the FBI
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Lanny Davis
White House Special Counsel
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Sally Katzen
Secretary of Management and Budget
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Kathleen Koch
Heads FBI Equal Opportunity Office
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John Podesta
Deputy Chief of Staff
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Alan Blinder
Vice Chairman of Federal Reserve
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Janet Yellen
Heads Council of Economlc Advisors
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Ron Klain
Chief of Staff for Al Gore
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In defense of F.D. Khan, I doubt I would have provided any links either. I thought this was all common knowledge. Hell, I was surprised to learn that AIPAC had fallen all the way to fourth in term of the "most powerful."

What sickens me is that whenever someone mentions something that might not be "PC," that person is immediately attacked here. When are people going to get it through their thick heads that it's simply human nature for groups of people (be they separated by ethnicity, gender, religion or what-not) to look out for the interests of their group. And the perceived "best interests" for any given group might well be at odds with the "best interests" of another group. Yes, actions from one group can even be damaging to another.

What really pisses me off is you jokers managed to use your political correctness to derail one of the best topics to hit this BBS in a long time: PACS

 

So it's "common knowledge" that people of the Jewish faith run this country, and a number of them greater than their percentage of the population is suspect? I'm always the last to know... I am assuming you're talking about people of Jewish faith and not national origin, because there are plenty of people on your list, Pole, with non-Jewish sounding names (Thomases, Nash, Lewis, Davis, etc.).

Don't give me this garbage about this being about PACs. I'd happily join in a debate about their merits, given the proper thread. This one is about the evil that comes from having too many "Jews" in government.

Your argument is proven doubly-weak by presenting a list of Jewish people in Clinton's cabinet. If you had such a list of people in Bush's cabinet (he's the president now, unless I missed something there too) you would have presented that list, instead. Nor have you shown how the people on your list are in any way related to PACs, with the possible exception of Footlik. Again, proof that this thread has absolutely nothing to do with PACs, and everything to do with singling out Jewish people (who were formerly) in government, and claiming that they are inherently biased.

I guess you have lots of Jewish friends too, right?

 

LOL True. You think people saying these things would've caught on by now.

Mr Kahn, my impressions of most of your post have been very firmly rooted in the 'Arab Nationalist' viewpoint. I would be willing to place a wager that at least 75% of your post have this agenda. Nothing wrong with that, of course, as long as you don't try to present yourself as impartial on the subject.

I find pole's comments about 'Jews' are actualy an intresting subject. What exactly is a jew? Some would consider someone Jewish based on whether they 0practice a certian religion, some consider it a genetic trait, and some define it more as a cultural group. It seems that you're defining Jew by last name, which is somewhat ironic because, unless I'm mistaken, traditionaly 'being Jewish' was determined by the Jewishness of your mother. Are all of these 'jewish sounding' people really Jewish? I somewhat doubt it.

Also I agree that PACs would intresting an intresting subject for debate, but I am concerned that the true intent was to sublimate Mr Kahn's anti-jewish sentaments behind a poorly constructed facade, though I may be wrong. Nevertheless he presented in through the 'stained glass' of another subject on which he has a clear opinion, thus tainting the debate from the start.

I would suggest, perhaps, that the reason for any Jewish bias in Clinton's cabinet, if it existed, perhaps would be an effort to link Clinton, trying to be the 'new Southern moderate democrat' to the historicaly strong Democratic 'New England Liberal Intelegencia' type old school democrat, a group historically with a large ethnicaly Jewish population. Not some sort of fundraising plot. I think those considerations are more aplicable to senators and such, who constantly struggle for money to fund campaigns.

I would also like to point out that the fastest growing special intrest segement is Muslem. Clearly not near the size of historical Jewish lobbies, but rising with a bullet.

Finally, I think it's intresting that people somehow tend to lend some sort of conspiritorial unified agenda to groups, as in "the Jews want this" etc. AARP is another large political group with a strong lobby, and I can tell you that most PACs involve a large group of mildly apathetic people, a few hard core whackos, and a leadership that tries to overstate it's power every chance it gets. There are no 10,000,000 person secret conspiricies out there. That's just paranoia. Every time you start thinking like this, I'd suggest you visualise a bunch of retirees sneaking around dark alleys with their canes and walkers, trying to overthrow the governmnet.

 

You're right Sammy, I'm sure such an inordinate number of Jews (relative to the population) in Clinton's cabinet is all pure coincidence. He simply appointed the best man or woman for the job, and after all was said and done, the vast majority of them just happened to be Jewish.

Besides, what does it really matter? Clinton's administration was in the previous century for heaven's sake. It's ancient history, and it certainly has no bearing on our present state of affairs.

Most of all, I had no business implying that the whole system of PAC's could possibly encourage any type of corruption. Hell, if you re-read my comments, you might even infer that I think (what was at the time), the first or second largest PAC in the nation could have somehow possibly influenced Clinton's cabinet appointments. Not by handing any money filled envelopes under the table, mind you. Even a heathen like myself wouldn't suggest that. Hell, no one could suggest such a disgusting act—especially when it concerns such as just and noble man like Bill Clinton. That simply DOES NOT happen in America. But I will admit....that in my previous state of ignorance, I might have thought that some AIPAC member might have done something, like, have his wife bake a cake...not a box cake, mind you--but a really good made-from-scratch cake...and given it to 'ol Mr. Bill with a suggestion that he might appoint a few more Jewish cabinet members. But even that could be unethical, and I was stupid to think it. I was a fool. What in the hell was I thinking? And why would I pose those thoughts here of all places?

My ignorance is matched only by my cynicism. I MUST remember: America is great! All people are noble and good….except for those ten or twelve in Afghanistan whom we are about to bring to justice.

My apologies. Carry on.

 

Maybe I misjudged you Pole. Your last post sounded much more anti-Democrat than antisemetic. I still haven't seen any demonstrating that all those terrible "Jews" in the cabinet influenced our position on attending the Human Rights Conference, or other foreign policies.

So since Bush is in office now, all those cake-baking Jewish folk were driven out of office, right? Problem solved. Its certainly within the power of Bush's good, conservative Christian cabinet members to right the wrongs done by the pro-Israeli Clinton government, if they so choose.

 

F.D. Kahn,

First, PACs are a worthy topic. But you don't use, for instance, the Tobacco lobby or Gun lobby as an example, you mention the Jewish lobby. You did not pick this randomly. I certainly am not saying that your are anti-semitic, but you clearly believe that the Jewish lobby harms the US, and also imply that it is somehow responsible for selecting Clinton's cabinet.

A lot of Jewish Americans are attracted to political life, particularly as Democrats, and it has next to nothing to do with Israel or Jewish lobbyists. Look at the individuals and their work histories before you imply that Jewish PACs somehow secured these positions.

Shall we be concerned about our Health Care because Jewish Americans make up a disproportionate share of physicians? Or Attorneys?

Statistics can be dangerous. The 1990 census show about 1,000,000 Arab Americans. Bush's cabinet has 2 Arab Americans: the Secretary of Energy Abraham and the Director of OMB Daniels. If this was relative representation, there should be 12 cabinet positions held by Jews and about 600 cabinet positions in total. Aren't there under 20 cabinet positions? Goodness, what is that Arab American lobby up to?

I have ABSOLUTELY no concerns that there are Arab Americans in key cabinet posts. I never even knew until I looked it up in response to your post. I don't care if they are Russian Americans, Chinese Americans, Muslim Americans, or Purple Americans, etc etc. I know they will do whats best for this country. To imply otherwise is offensive.

I don't feel the extremist "muslims" hate us in America because we are prosperous, because we are free, because we are liberal.
If that were the case Japan and Amsterdam would be on top of their list.

We, will certainly are not the only Western nation that has been targeted by extremists. We also are the most obvious target, i.e. most representive of the West.

The fact that we give so much money, weapons and unwavering support for Israel is the reason for this.

Granted, many hate us because of Israel. But until the American public feels that support of Israel is wrong, or until they have a lasting peace, they will have to keep disliking us for this. Polls show that the American public overwhelmingly supports Israel, making your PAC argument moot.

 

Pole,

How many on your list are attorneys? What % of all attorneys are Jewish? What % of active voters in the Democratic party are Jewish? Did you know that 10% of all Senators are Jewish? (How did the PACs do that?)

There are other possibilities than PAC influence.

 

So let me get this straight Khan EVERYONE who is Jewish LOVE Israel, and so they are pushing THEIR agenda that is killing America right? If you use that logic we better get rid of everyone of Middle East descent because THEY may be pushing some evil agenda right? When are people going to judge on a person's individual idea instead of pulling the same old "Jewish did this and that". Maybe the U.S. had something to do with Israel OTHER THEN the fact that some of the people happen to be Jewish. I don't know why you're so determined to prove that Jewish people being in the Clinton cabinet is to blame for anything. There's people of other descents in the cabinet other then the Jewish.

 

FACT:
The US walked out of the Racist conference because of Israel
FACT:
The Us was kicked out of the Human Rights Council primarilty because of its support of Israel and its human rights violations


I will continue to doubt these two "facts" until you provide links.

I agree with you that Arab nations fuel anti-Jewish sentiments in an attempt to create solidarity in their own countries (whatever their internal troubles may be), banding together in homogeneity against a group different than them. The state of Israel in turn exacerbates the situation by its responses.

I disagree with the majority of your other statements, and agree with others in this thread that your discussion of PACs is merely a windowdressing to the main thrust of your initial post and this thread in general.

 

F.D. Khan, a very interesting post as usual. I certainly agree that money is corrupting our democracy. Instead of one person one vote it is $200 one vote or some such figure. The small group of rich can essentially outvote the large number of poor and middle class voters, especially for larger races like president, US senate, big city mayor, governor or state wide office in most of the bigger states. Grassroot politics and door kknocking doesn't stand a chance in these races. The chief transmission vehicle is costly TV advertising which nearly always wins the day.

Once in office the rich than keep contributing to have more and more access. This is so widely known that I even watched a movie on TV last night, "the Distinguished Gentleman with Eddie Murphy which poked fun of the whole affair with electric utility lobbyists corrupting the congressmen.

I also agree that US foreign policy is very counterproductively slanted toward Israel. The question is why. Is this due to Jewish money contributed to politicians is so much more than let us say Arab or Muslim money? I don't know. Is it better organization? Is it that Jewish Americans have ben here longer and know our system better, I don't know. I believe the number of Arab or Muslim Americans is rapidly approaching that of Jewish Americans.
What is going on?

What can Arab/Muslim Americans do about this?

As I said before I believe that non Muslim non Jewish Americans who are not anti-semitic nuts should step forward on this issue.

 

What exactly, are you implying about Muslims and Jewish Americans?

 

isn't ari fleischer jewish?

 

Cohen, with an exception of you perhaps and a very small number of my Jewish firends , you just can't have a decent conversation with them about the topic without them referring to the other group by names or characteristics that appear to an avearage liberal american as being practically racist.

It happened to me again on saturday night with a Jewish friend. What he has to say about Arabs and Palestinians would frankly seem very racist if it was said about African Americans or Hispanics. His politics are liberal democratic and I don't hear him making similar remarks about our taditional "minorities". I've had similar experiences with Arabs/Muslims speaking about Jewish people.

I frankly think the animosity bewtween the two combatant groups leaves them unable to think straight.

 

There is a very high % of Jewish-Americans in government. I don't think this is a nefarious plot, but like Pole, believe that cohesive, effective lobbying is going to have results.

I think that Jews, as a cultural group, have been concerned about losing influence in government ever since the Holocaust. It makes sense to me; after all, anti-Semitism is an age-old tradition in the West. How better to prevent a second Holocaust than by maintaining an influential position in government? And yes, money will influence the naming of important cabinet positions.

Unfortunately, well-intentioned lobbies can eventually have negative ramifications. The China Lobby serves as a prime example of this. The money-rich China Lobby prevented the US from adopting a more rational approach to dealing with the CCP long after its victory was apparent. You can actually document a few treaty violations that were probably a result of the China Lobby's influence in government. We had to nominally support a corrupt, fascist dictatorship for a while because of a powerful lobbying group. Not that the CCP was any better, but when faced with two "bad" groups, it's usually best to deal with the one that has more popular support and power.

Yet the China Lobby really believed it was supporting democracy and opposing Communism. In the same sense, there's always the danger that a substantial Jewish lobby will bias American foreign policy against Palestine.

I don't actually know much about the internal workings of "Jewish-lobbies," so take all that with a grain of salt... but it's always a theoretical danger.