Speaking for some of us "moderates" (or whatever you want to call us), I'm open to the arguments against Van Gundy. The last two games have made the case against his strategy more effectively than any words could. But please, JVG haters, don't squander your credibility by arguing that we should have kept Francis or that JVG is the reason Francis never achieved his potential here. Rudy T would have taken the deal for McGrady in a heartbeat, just as he took the less obvious deal for Barkley. It was under Rudy, not JVG, that Francis proved his limits, and we were damned lucky to cash him in for a superior player. We will pay a price for that trade at 2 other positions for at least part of this year. I'm not happy that JVG and CD didn't secure better role players in the offseason, and I'm not happy with the results of the low-possession style so far. JVG must fix both of those shortcomings with an open mind this year or in the offseason. But I'm sure he knows that. And having Tracy McGrady on our team will make it easier, not harder, for JVG -- or the coach who succeeds him, if he fails to adapt -- to do both.
Like i have said in other threads. I love francis, and i was sad we lost him. But when you can get a player like T-mac you make the trade. I think Orlando is a better fit for Francis. And T-mac is a better fir for Houston. Because Francis most importent offensive weapon is his drive, and he has problems playing with a dominant big man. T-mac's likes to shoot jumpers more (atleast hat is what i think when i see him play). And he Seems to want to play with a dominant big man. About van gundy is another Question. I'm not to fond of Van Gundy'. I like his defense. But his offensive coaching skills are just very subpar. And i'm a little disapointed that we got no good role players. i liked the Mutombo trade. but like we know our PG are just not good. And we do not have good shooters on our team. I believe Nachbar has out highest 3p%. That is not good. I think we should give van gundy some more time. Wat wories me is that we lost a double digit lead in the fourth in 2 games against 2 very bad team. Will great to see a post of you again, you should post more(if you find the time)
In all seriousness PG, you need to be fair about a couple of things, and this is coming from someone who was always on Steve's side when he was here. Steve is showing his limits in Orlando, and I don't think that it can even be debated that his limits have been a factor in some of Orlando's losses, just like they were a factor here. Steve is not a perfect player, just like Yao and Tmac aren't perfect.
I guess because I totally agree with everything you said, I think this is the best post about our current problems I have yet seen. I agree that the major part of the problem is the lack of quality players brought in at the right positions over the summer. Obviously point guard was not addressed adequately and I have to wonder if CD is the right guy to put together the final pieces?
You can always count on pgab to pop in a thread with that I'm-smarter-than-you one-line defense of Francis and a rolleyes. Talk about hedging bets: Must be nice living in your world where you can both agree with and not agree with the trade. I agree 100% with what you said Will. People who are ranting and raving about the "trade" and wishing they had Steve back are missing the big picture. Way missing it. Other than more rebounds, there is nothing Steve is doing that he wasn't doing for the Rockets pre-Van Gundy. Very good points, great boards, decent assists and high, high turnovers. While it's just been 8 games, his turnovers this season are at a career-high. They got a younger, more talented duo in the deal, but they downgraded in overall starters/depth. Furthermore, Van Gundy's offense has turned a team with a 2-time NBA scoring leader and a very talented scoring big man in to an 87-point a night monstrosity, which puts them in company with duds like Golden State, Portland, Atlanta and Kidd-less New Jersey. Defensive teams are paying a higher price this year as well with increased foul calls and higher scoring games (Detroit is giving up almost 97 a night after holding teams to 84 last season). At 25 years old a piece, they have time to figure out how Tracy/Yao will play off each other and get the right pieces in here, but there's no doubt you have to place some of this at the feet of Van Gundy.
Will, you stated exactly how I feel! It's really frustrating that we keep losing these games but once the team gels we will be really good. I am sure CD & JVG are going to try to make a deal before the deadline. I am hoping we can try to get ZO or PJ Brown for Juwon or Mo T, and somehow get a PG.
Of course McGrady is a more skilled player than Francis; If they are both healthy I'd take McGrady ten times out of ten. I was in favor of the trade then and am not prepared to rescind that now. However, if the question is would I rather have McGrady plus trash for Francis and Mobley - that is a more difficult question given results so far. Likewise if McGrady is so hampered by the JVG offense that he can only muster 19 points a game on 40% shooting, like Francis - then what was the point of getting him in the first place?
Oh, hell yes. Like Jeff mentioned in his thread, and a couple of us chimed in on, JVG seemed to learn nothing from Pat Riley except how Riley used his players in New York. Riley has a brilliant offensive mind, ala Showtime Lakers, and could adapt to the players he had. JVG hasn't show that at all, not yet. Any chance we can get Riley to come out of the front office in Miami and coach here? Hell, I'd give him full control. CD can become a scout in Europe, lol.
My problem with this ridiculous thread is now a moderator is coming out and telling us not to discuss a topic that is going to be a topic all season. Again, as I stated in a thread yesterday, its funny that now people don’t expect our super duper brand new franchise player to up lift these sorry role players but when Steve was here, it was he can’t make his group of sorry role players better. Did any of you guys watch the TNT broadcast last night. They were talking about Grant Hill last night and Grant Hill saying he didn’t know Steve was so good and particularly how unselfish he is. You guys were unfair to Steve and its funny now that its everyone else’s fault instead of our new franchise player. Grant Hill must post on this board.
Dear Pgabriel, As a long time Stevie Franchise supporter, I can sympathize with some of your feelings about the over-bashing he has received here the bbs over the years. However, your posts are beginning to show a bias of clouded thinking that Francis was perfect and can do no wrong. You might not care, but I think you start to lose credibility when that happens. I love Franchise, and while, I am upset that the Rocks are sucking, I do notice positive differences in how they've played this year in terms of moments of offensive effeciency and continuity that were so difficult to achieve last year. I'm glad Franchise is running and gunning with Hill in Orlando. When Cat gets healthy, they'll be even better. Franchise is a better fast break finisher than starter, imo, and it is going to be great for him to have Hill running the floor with him. But back to the credibility thing. In this thread: http://bbs.clutchfans.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85635 You even defended Francihise at the expense of Coach Rudy T, somebody who loved Franchise. Most importantly your argument that Rudy never fast-breaked until Clyde was flat out wrong. Not only do I remember differently from you, I have tape to prove it, and also posted written historical evidence from the Chronicle contrary to you claim. You never responded to my evidence. Why did you make that claim about Rudy T? Did you really remember things like that or did you create a lie in order to support Franchise? I'm trying to get to the root of misinformation here. You see, if it's either case, it can be infered that because you love Francis so much (and I understand your frustration towards the Franchise haters), it will lead you to defend him at the expense of solid logical arguments. That's when you lose objectivity, and you fall into the crowd of most BBSers who just spew emotion instead of making sense. I apologize if I offended you, and please feel free to ignore list me as I am about to do you, because continually posting the same tirades in the BBS about former players and doing so while falling off the ledge of objectivity makes the BBS a worse place, not better.
i think you are giving riles far too much credit. magic johnson was showtime. when jkidd got traded to NJ, that team began to run and play exciting high-octane offense. is byron scott a brlliant offensive mind? nash just got traded to phoenix and boy do they run. we're a day late and a dollar short in the point guard department, that's the fact.
IMO - My Rocket timeline... Rudy needed to go. JVG didn't need to come JJ signing was good. Though he looks bad now, he's still cheap and I think he'll come around. Steve needed to go. I hated to see Mobley go with him that is a fair price to get McGrady. TMac trade was good. Ward signing was bad - very bad - even for minimum. Sura signing was TBD (to be determined, but I have my doubts about that 1 as well). Deke trade was all that was left but wasn't my 1st choice.
I forgot. Its ok to criticize Jeff Van Gundy 1. took us to the playoffs last year (finally) 2. took the Knicks to the championship series final 3. improved our defense but say something about [Insert powerforward who has never had a winning season for ANY team in 10 years plus] and you are the grinch that stole christmas. lets moderate this bbs fairly, every player and coach is fair game. and heavens forbid that you are correct about your predictions cause people will hate you for your frankness , honesty, and become jealous of your humor and creativity. the truth hurts rockets fans so imagine how that rim feels at Toyota Center?
You argue that Francis can’t run a fast break but then they are running a good break in Orlando. If they are running a good break in Orlando and you admit it, what your point. I didn’t respond to your post because I am being proven right. Just watch Orlando play. They fast break. Case Closed.
Then, Maybe it means trading players is not the right solution. Maybe We need to do more to ensure we can fully utilize T-Mac and Yao. For example, a different coach. I totally agree with Will though.
Pgabriel I stated that Franchise is a better fast break finisher, not starter. When James Posey left, theren't weren't many people who would run with Franchise here other than Mobley (and Nachbar, but he never played). I'm saying that in Orlando, the highlights dunks of him have been him finishing and Hill passing to him to finish. That's why I think he's going to have a great season: his skills and Hill's skills will help eachother. Secondly, you still haven't stated why you attacked Rudy (or claimed that he never ran before Clyde). Did you blatently lie? It's either that or you had no idea of how the Rockets played pre-Clyde and still stated your point, which also would be a form of lying. I agree with many of your posts defending Franchise. I just can't get over you falling into the darkside of making false claims to defend Franchise. I am sorry for clicking the (view ignored person) button, because instead of addressing the issues I presented, you made a false claim about me contradicting myself. I won't make the mistake of clicking that button again.
Exactly, what is your point on why Francis sucked at fast breaks while he was in Houston? Was it because of JVG's system? or Rudy's system? or because Cuttino was the only other one running with him (with neither passing)? I think Francis's talents are closing a break, which is why he is doing better in Orlando. Orlando has players that can start the break (and pass), which lets Francis play to his strengths.
Kim, honestly I was never the biggest Rudy fan but I wasn’t trying to attack Rudy. My main point about Francis and the fast break over time on this board is this, fast breaking is a team effort. Now everyone is saying yeah, Francis can finish the break but he couldn’t run it. Well God forbid a guy actually try to play to his strength. Steve never had good finishers with except Posey, Mobley, and Walt Williams. This team still isn’t running the fast break. Is it still Steve’s fault? And while his strength maybe finishing, who did he have to get him the ball out on the break. The whole fast break debate plays into the nature of this thread and the nature of posters on this board. Everything’s Steve’s fault. Steve can be doing well on the fast break in Orlando and you guys still want to blame Steve for this team’s past fast break woes. This team still isn’t fast breaking and you guys still won’t admit that the fast break wasn’t his problem.
