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picture of Chairman Mao overlooking Yao as he carries the olympic torch

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Commodore, Aug 7, 2008.

  1. yuantian

    yuantian Contributing Member

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    nothing i said would cause farmers committing suicide. we are talking about returning TAM back to it was in Qing.
     
  2. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Well - it's debateable - the entire world was moving toward nation states and colonialism was at an end. China would likely have been united under Mao or the Nationalists. Both had a similar vision for China.

    I don't think Mao is demonized. Not like Hitler or Stalin is. But I think that's because most in the west don't know much about China's history. And I will admit that Mao's march was a pretty inspiring and amazing journey - to be put on the run and come back even stronger.

    But man, he killed many many people. He gets away with it because it was his own people and it wasn't based on race but on status and politics.

    Anyway, I honestly don't care if Yao hangs out under a picture of Mao or if the Chinese celebrate him. He's more of a symbol than anything else now. History is just history.
     
  3. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    My understanding was that Mao in his early days tried to get industrial workers to rise up against the fuedal system but failed, so he went to the far more fast rural farmers etc and that's where he built his army.

    I seriously doubt Mao would have made any kind of permanent alliance with the nationalists.
     
  4. yuantian

    yuantian Contributing Member

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    CPP never had any real power before they were pushed into the rural area. The only path for communism was through farmers, that's different from the western industrial nations. at the time, they absolutely wanted the alliance. also, KMT had roots with Soviet too. if they joined alliance, i doubt they would had the chance gain the support from rural area.

    also, he wasn't even the absolute leader at early stage. he was just one of the many organizers. he didn't built much of an army either. CPP voted him to be the leader after they were forced into a corner. and from that time on, his strategic brilliance made CPP into a successful organization. and after WWII, it finally had enough chips to go against KMT.
     
  5. Bank_Shot

    Bank_Shot Contributing Member

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    I would not say that Mao "killed" many people. He was responsible for many deaths, but he never directly ordered the killings. This is what I meant by the the Western demonization of Mao. Mao was not a mass murderer who had a plan to kill his political enemies and the ordinary citizens of his country. He was an emperor who liked power and had many failed policies. And in China's society at the time, tragedy struck. Imagine if China was as rich as the U.S., then perhaps the failure of the great leap forward would not have caused that many starvations (as Great Depression did not cause nearly as many deaths in the U.S.). Imagine if the Chinese were open-minded like they are today, maybe the political purges of many officials during the cultural revolution would not have resulted in so many deaths. To judge a historical figure as Mao is now, you have to put him in his period in history. For example, the founding fathers of this country did not free the slaves, but that did not make them lesser great men because banning slavery was simply unimagineable in their time. Mao achieved what was the greatest historical mission of his generation, and that is the main reason why the Chinese history will not competely negate him even long after his era (or the era of the party he founded) ends.
     
    #65 Bank_Shot, Aug 7, 2008
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2008
  6. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    I can't believe the Mao love even from the Chinese. He kept the foreign influences out? You know why china is rich now days?

    It is like people voting for george w.
     
  7. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    In that one shot didn't it look like Yao was limping a little ?

    :confused:
     
  8. rfila

    rfila Member

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    It is true China has to open its door to the world to get rich. It is also true China had to close its door to keep the thief and pirates out to survive before they can open the door.

    You probably know the reason the British first sent its troop to China and what they did there. Do you know the reason the American first sent their troop to China and what they did? How about the Japanese army?

    Mao was the one closed the door.

    Although both Mao and Bush have made some horrible mistakes and crimes, they are at least different in that, Mao did what he did for his whole country while Bush for? Chevon?
     
  9. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    Name me one country that has become wealthy by keeping its doors closed in the modern world. Colonialism seems to have gone out of favor around the 1940's. Some of crap that mao did was unspeakable.
     
  10. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    You may not say that, but history does. Mao wasn't some well-meaning dictator not knowing what went on. He ordered his political rivals killed in cold blood - including friends. He sent 1000's of troops to their death because he was afraid of the leader of those troops and wanted them eliminated. He sent millions to labor camps. he once claimed that we was willing to let half of all chinese die if it would bring china nuclear-military domination. He's a monster - the facts are pretty indisputable.

    I mean, the great leap forward - do you know that China was actually exporting grain to the rest of the world while this famine was going on? Mao sent food abroad to make the world believe China had a surplus, while in fact his people were starving!

    There is no period in history that could judge him kindly. You can call him a great leader, or point to his accomplishments. But you can not deny that his hands have more blood on them that probably any other single man in world history. This isn't the western view, it's pretty much every single country outside of China in the world.
     
  11. yuantian

    yuantian Contributing Member

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    it wasn't all his fault actually. similar kind of things still happens today. what happened was, due to bad policy, local officials would report false numbers in how much grain they got each autumn. they try to appease their supervises. by the time it gets to his ears in the central government, the number sounds so good, they never knew there was a major problem. it was later, people are starting to realize how much lies came from the local government. by that time, it was too late.
     
  12. yuantian

    yuantian Contributing Member

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    Qing was pretty damn rich before the western countries forced it to open it's doors. and also started selling drugs to them.
     
  13. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    perhaps, but never the less, Mao had his hands in the deaths of millions upon millions of Chinese - he knowingly ordered the deaths of untold numbers, and at best, he was callous to the suffering and deaths of 10's of millions more.

    There is no way to say he isn't responsible for millions of dead even if you take out the great leap forward. How can you argue that a man would not be aware of so many purges and labor camps for 30 some years?
     
  14. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    The british and foreign powers were no saints - that's for sure. But today's wealth in China stems significantly from her exports and trade with other nations - including the foreign invest that pored in to support development of numerous industries.

    Capitalism has been good to China.
     
  15. yuantian

    yuantian Contributing Member

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    i'm not denying the suffering that his leadership caused in the later years of his life. i honestly can't believe him knowingly ordered the deaths of untold numbers due to the fact that my family would surely be affected. i'm sure he ordered the purge of his politically enemies for sure. anyone would be paranoid to lose his power. that's a fact. a lot people who died were either old landlords, capitalist and such. it was the local people who took them out, it's almost like revenge thing. you know, the poor finally gets their say in the end.

    some facts about cultural revolution. my parents told me that it wasn't so much about central government anymore. they have lost controlled. it was the struggle within local factions. they would see bodies flowing in the rivers and know there was a battle somewhere. it's almost like the gang wars. that was happening everywhere in china. and the central government couldn't do much for a while. of course, that was due the bad leadership/policy, whatever you call it. but i don't think in the beginning they knew what the consequence would be. it's not like, they planned it out.
     
  16. yuantian

    yuantian Contributing Member

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    yes. capitalism is good for china in today's world. that's why people in china love capitalism now. they only joke about vicious capitalist. :D at same time, it's only good for some of the people, not everyone.
     
  17. rfila

    rfila Member

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    Did you accidently quote the wrong one? or you did not read my post before reply? I know my English isn't good, but it can't be that bad.
     
  18. Panda

    Panda Member

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    Mao's time has passed. The official stance on Mao has been weakening throughout the years due to a more capitalistic approach on economy. Among Chinese civilians the views on him are split, ranging from hating and despising him to still liking him. Debates on Mao is a topic seen on various Chinese internet forums.

    All that aside, Mao's stature is preserved for a very practical reason. He is still the founder of the current state. To defy Mao is like to defy the legitimacy of the current state. Imagine Bush saying Washington is Hitler. The symbolic meaning of Mao is huge for the stability of the current state. For that reason Mao is to stay even though some Chinese don't really like Mao, which gives grounds to the propaganda of the pro-Mao Chinese.
     
  19. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    Taiwan has a better standard of living than china. They allowed help from america and japan. Did they get plundered?
     
  20. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    So what if Mao did some great things, anyone can do great things on the backs of millions of starved Chinese.
     

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