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PHX pursuing Trevor Ariza (UPDATE: Ariza signs one-year, $15M deal with Phoenix)

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by justtxyank, Jun 30, 2018.

  1. TEXNIFICENT

    TEXNIFICENT Member

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    Nope just ax the midgets.
     
  2. DonatelloLimestone

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    [QUOTE="DonatelloLimestone, post: 13617886, member: 65190"

    [/QUOTE]

    @roslolian

    and of course, for those who don't want to listen to Chris Paul shout it out ...twice...about the rockets burn down

    then further more, do they want to listen to tilman here himself then on the WB trade:

    "
    When Cowherd asked where the Rockets’ owner was when he decided to make the move for Westbrook, Fertitta responded:

    I was in Europe, and so I was six or seven hours ahead of them. So I’m talking at 2, 3, 4 in the morning. And we just decided to do it. They ran different statistics by me.


    My basketball ops [operations] got maybe a little weak at the end, and I just said, ‘We’re doing this. We are going to make the change. We’re going to go after it and roll the dice. We’re going to find that 5 percent.’


    The one thing I believe you do in business, and you do in basketball, is you never sit still. You always keep it exciting. Not only is it exciting that we’re a better team, but it’s exciting for the fans. I owe it to them to give them the best opportunity to win a championship every year.'"


    "“Last year (getting under the luxury tax) was a fluke. We were going to be in the (tax). It was an accident. I’m still trying to figure out how we got under. I was positive we were going to be in it by $11 million. But if I’m in the luxury tax, I expect us to win.”"

    -MOREY is so so kind. Apparently Tilman just wanted to win, but morey went out of his way and behind his back like the sneaky little computer hacking nerd he is, to save tilman money! even if it hurts his own job, his own assets....and Now harden, that culture killing overweight dababy friend, who tilman and you guys have sadi they accomodated and went all in for...also sneakly trying to save tilman money bc he was the guy who we pandered too...and then 90 percenet of our moves were cost saving even losing his best friend on the team, ariza, for nothing. I don't know how you guys did it, but 30 for 30 level reporting.


    "
    "I think his agent did me a favor, OK," Fertitta said at the media availability, explaining that he now had an easy out if the Rockets had a disappointing year and decided to move on from D'Antoni.

    That's typically not the kind of comment made out loud, much less to the media, by an owner who is attempting to defuse drama. Of course, it's also an unusual approach to point out a coach's age and publicly wonder whether he wanted to continue working beyond next season, as Fertitta did when asked by the Houston Chronicle weeks earlier about a potential extension. That prompted the 68-year-old D'Antoni to make it clear that he planned to coach "at a high level for at least another three years."

    Nor is it normal NBA business practice to spill the specifics of an offer that wasn't accepted. Fertitta volunteered that the "great extension offer" he made D'Antoni included a $5 million base salary -- below market value for a coach of his stature -- and $1 million in incentives for each playoff round won."

    "Fertitta failed to mention the buyout language that guaranteed D'Antoni only half of his base salary if the Rockets fired him before the extension began. That was the primary sticking point for D'Antoni, who hoped for a commitment of two more seasons beyond this contract and never seriously considered a half-hearted offer of one more year."
     
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  3. LosPollosHermanos

    LosPollosHermanos Houston only fan
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    ^ so basically Tillman spells out exactly why he is the most culpable party in the rockets historic demise dumpster fire (believe me I'm not known for cutting harden slack) and posters don't wanna believe him.

    can't make this **** up
     
  4. Reeko

    Reeko Member

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    Last year (getting under the luxury tax) was a fluke. We were going to be in the (tax). It was an accident. I’m still trying to figure out how we got under. I was positive we were going to be in it by $11 million. But if I’m in the luxury tax, I expect us to win.

    quotes like this from Tilman piss me the hell off

    Who does he think he’s fooling with this blatant BS?

    if you’re gonna lie to the public, at least make it believable…

    Tilman’s the type to steal your phone, help u look for it, and then when u discover it was in his pocket the entire time, he acts like he has no clue how it got there
     
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  5. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    Rox brought in Melo who is just as close to Cp3 as Ariza and WB who is even closer to Harden than Ariza.

    Harden and WB literally grew up together. Chemistry is good but it doesnt cover bball skills. If Ariza still had it he wouldnt be part of the 0-23 brick gang and he would have shown something when was in a contender like Portland.
     
  6. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    Nah its believable the Rox 2018 got dismantled by LTS. Howevrr that isnt a big deal cuz GSW was rolling with 4 Allstars including KD at the time. Even if everything went right and LTS didnt exist chances are they wont win, we got 2 all stars vs 4 I mean you know logically speaking the Rox are still gonna lose.

    When KD left and the West was wide open again, Harden already pushed Cp3 away and traded for his boy WB. That was Harden's brain child right? And then that cost Rox more picks on top the picks they spent on Cp3 (again another Harden brain child). Harden then demanded a trade and sabotaged his trade value so he wont cost a lot.

    Thats the reality of the situation. Mayne Tillman cost the 2018 team to crumble but Harden gutted the franchise of future assets, pushed Cp3 away for WB and then left them high and dry.
     
  7. DonatelloLimestone

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    Once again, its not tht simple. Like you're saying their buds, tell him to lead the way. If melo was with ayton, he wouldn't have the same affect he doesnt have that same leadership style of commnunication, initiative or so forth. You can't take away the human elements and Ariza had a natural way to 'glue' the team as chris paul...no one is saying Carmelo as a glue guy...Why is that so hard to seperate from the idea that they are friends?

    Lke the dude everyone is giving respect to, Chris Paul has just come out twice and spoke of Houston in public settings and he clearly talked down the imporatance even of harden and him, he brought up Ariza both times as the difference maker. I guess you can say, from whatever information you have, that no, ariza is replaceable by carmelo bc carmelo is friends with chris paul...that just makes it seem like the point is flying over your head which is why i put that video in.
    I'm not sure how much further accordingly to go if you don't believe chris paul himself, and regarding the westbrook you don't believe tilman fertitta himself on that trade.


    thats twice you made me like oscar, imo, cmon man

    I don't know what to tell ya, go rockets?!
     
  8. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    I'm not saying Tillman didnt deserve blame, I'm just saying Ariza proved he didnt deserve that 15M deal. Tillman's flaw is he didnt want to pay LTD, hiw Morey approached that constraint is up to him. Like Presti for example OKC arent paying taxes either but somehow Presti made a finals team. Miami hasnt paid taxes either they still got a grest culture and also a finals team. Not paying LT is common constraint among teams its great if the owner has deep pockets but again but not oaying doesnt make Tillman the worst owner ever.

    Ariza got traded for Oubre cuz people thought he was just mailing it in cuz he wasnt on a contender kinda like PJ Tucker. If he stayed on thr Rox he woulda been exposed to really suck and wouldnt get traded for assets anymore.

    Morey could have done a sign and trade and gotten something for him he failed. Thats on him not Tillman.
     
    #568 roslolian, Jul 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2021
  9. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    Thats all a big if. Cp3 give thanks to Ariza but his thanks didnt prevent the 0-23 3 pt brickfest right? You act like Ariza on the Rox resulted in a ring they fell short, their chemistry wasnt enough in the end. Maybe ariza round 2 might have resulted in a ring but it likely wont cuz he sucked everywhere he went after that. Cp3 thanking hum for 2018 doesnt change Ariza is washed 2019 onwards.

    Cp3 about to win his first ring and he did it with Ayton and Booker and not Trevor Ariza. You are making a lot of assumptions lol thats not reality. If Hakeem got drafted by the Bulls he would be the goat with 8 rings but people dont say he is the Goat right now he aint even in the conversation.
     
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  10. DonatelloLimestone

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    rockets gave us a championship window. thats when you go for it. its not guaranteed but did you see all the teams go all in this year? Clippers, jazz,nuggets, big market small market...and be it raptors, cavs, or suns it shows that anything can happen so don't give up one year where everyone goes through losses. Hakeem lost over a decade and only won twice ,is that how you see it ? itss a rare thing to get the ring. and its hard o quantify twhen a 'leader' or vet presence like cp3 for ayton and ariza or harden/paul can improve the oncourt flow.

    but upto you, disregard cp3, sure as hell i can't convince ya...I'm more convinced that you're just a good troll bc some of that logic is just....so in that respect, good job, go rockets
    but i
     
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  11. kjayp

    kjayp Member

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    the problem is... why were we even in the room? Obviously WB doesnt fit the DM analytics mold... so why are we in the room to begin with?
    answer... somebody basically pushed us to explore stupid options... somebody was forcing our hand to move a major contract at a disadvantage... somebody says he "knew exactly what we needed to do..."
    The idiot that Tilman is, he probably thought he was buying some good faith... get rid of the guy that his superstar is beefing with - and give him his buddy... regardless of the potential downside your GM is warning of...

    i'm certainly no Frittata lover... and yes ultimately he was the idiot that pulled the trigger... but there are plenty of behind the scenes possibilities that may factor in when assessing levels of culpability...

    jus sayin... imo...


    edit:
    another thought... 'so the ops guys got weak in the knees at the end...'
    as i said, i dont think WB is a DM guy...
    but lets say hypothetically...
    Darryl 'I'm gonna play hardball with House midseason' Murray probably thought we were giving up too much and wanted to walk away from the table for better leverage... so where's the line? 2 less pick swaps and DM is onboard? Top 10 protections and it fits the bill?
    The whole thing was stupid - seems to me it became just a matter of to what degree of stupidity... So Frittata undercut DMs ability to bring down the cost and paid full asking price - which was beyond stupid... but would wittling idk 10% off the price have made it a bargain?

    I mean i'm sure as hell not gonna stick up for Fritatta... but as i said - why are we even in the room?
     
    #571 kjayp, Jul 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2021
  12. DonatelloLimestone

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    but then the other moves don't make sense. So this indicts harden under the idea that we had to please him, he is the one who wants this and even if it hurts our franchise's future, we must appeal to him.

    Mean while, then we also just flat our refused to sign his best friend on the team before in ariza
    we refused to spend our MLE
    We refused to use our tPE
    We replaced ariza who was a massive part of the team with guys on minimum.
    1)Carmelo, we sent him home in the begining, but we kept his minimum contract until jan/feb for tax details
    2)James ennis, also on the minimum. he was even in the rotation when he was traded in febuary for...top 55 protected 2nd round pick
    3)Daneil house, picked up from dleague, another replacement in the rotation.he was cut in january bc we didn't want to just eat melo's minimum and so we sent daniel house home for 2 months.

    We also cut staff nad assistants including harden's personal trainer. We also chased away first jeff bzdelik who was paid nicely as an associatet head oach, but we were successful with his counter to MDA.

    We also traded first round picks to get under the tax. those picks could be used to like the above assets get better and add talent, instead we lost depth, rotation, trade assets, ignored shumperts bird rights like ariza

    So we simply couldn't ignore him when it came to one is the reason
    but all these other moves tht make our team way way worse, that are hugeg missed opportunities to adding talent, to the point where cp3 Himself has said Ariza was the glue, x factor, missing piece. Ariza was the one who wrote harden's players tribune to lobby for his mvp.

    So it just doesn't add up. In one case the guy on top brags about putting this trade come true, but people still want to blame harden. in another case, the moves are all not helpful to harden, or morey, or mda, or the team, or us fans. those are just tax saving moves no coincidence that once again benefit that same guy who also had the final say on his 'weak' basketball ops team. almost like hes the culrpit unless harden was fine with 90 percent of the other moves making his job harder but now all of a sudden ou can't say no to him and morey himself said he had the green light rom harden to move forward.
     
  13. DonatelloLimestone

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    I guess you can keep doing mental gymnastics on why morey would do moves that literally upend and undo assets, tpe, mle, draft assets that he himislef not only accumulated but often spoke about the value of. not just on the RW trade, but he gave away picks even to just save money. That money wasn't for future flexibility tand did not help us on hte floor, it was only for tax savings, read the following my man:


    "And that was the one thing that Morey never really had. According to the cap numbers at Spotrac, which go back to the 2010-11 season, the Rockets barely went over the luxury tax (just $3.65 million over) in their one season (2015-16) as a taxpayer. The Warriors spent $49.63 million in penalties over the last five seasons, while even the small-market Thunder spent $33.73 million. There was no excuse for Houston to not open up the checkbook. This is a franchise located in the fourth-biggest metro area in the U.S. that has had a superstar in the prime of his career. Alexander sat on his hands while Houston’s rivals went all in, counting on Morey’s ability to use advanced statistics to turn water into wine

    This refusal to spend money became farcical once Alexander sold the team to Tilman Fertitta in 2017. Fertitta spent so much money ($2.2 billion) to purchase the Rockets that he may not have had the liquidity to go into the red to build a title contender. Houston was a laughingstock around the league for the amount of juggling it had to do to stay under the tax. The best example came at the trade deadline last season, when Morey used a future first-round pick to shed the salaries of Brandon Knight and Marquese Chriss. There was no basketball reason for the move. It was just done to cut costs. It’s not that Knight and Chriss would have helped the Rockets. But there were certainly a lot of better things that Morey could have used that pick for.

    Houston also spent that season in a bizarre staring contest with Danuel House Jr. House is the kind of diamond in the rough that Morey routinely uncovered in Houston, an undrafted free agent on a two-way contract who would become a starting-caliber wing. The problem was that players on those deals can spend only 45 days with the NBA team during the season before their contracts have to be converted. Money in Houston was so tight that Morey had to send House back to the G League when he wouldn’t sign a below-market long-term deal. He replaced House with two players he signed off the street (Gerald Green and Kenneth Faried) before bringing him back right before the playoffs. It’s not like House was asking for the world. He signed a three-year, $11 million contract in the offseason. But even that was more than Morey could offer at the time.


    Houston’s limited financial flexibility became an even bigger issue last season after the trade for Westbrook. With the team’s two best players costing a combined $76.7 million, it became almost impossible for Morey to fill out the roster while staying under the luxury tax. Morey and head coach Mike D’Antoni had to conjure up production from players other teams didn’t want. Jeff Green went from being cut by the Jazz to being a crucial piece of the Rockets’ small-ball attack in the playoffs. It was the same story with Austin Rivers, who had been on three teams in five seasons before landing in Houston, and Ben McLemore, who had one foot out of the NBA before the Rockets turned him into a 3-point sniper. All were more valuable in Houston than anywhere else in the league because Morey identified what they could do well and put them in roles that didn’t ask them to do much else."
     
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  14. tinman

    tinman Member
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    The Rockets didn’t even make the finals with Ariza
    This is worse than the Tmac fans pretending he got out of the first round
    Mike D’Antoni ain’t winning a championship either

    You can’t even win with those two on nba2k

    stop your dumbness
     
  15. kjayp

    kjayp Member

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    cut to the chase... was the CP3/WB trade a cost cutter?
    I fully agree that Frittata is a cheap SOB that has run the franchise into the ground... but i dont see the WB/CP3 move as a move to save money - which seems to be what Frittata is all about... we didnt trim any payroll in the move...

    So we didnt trim payroll... and we gave away trade assets which typically correlate to cheaper rookie contracts... so that seems counterproductive to most of Frittata's financial efforts...
    WB certainly wasnt an analytical friendly option... so it doesnt align with Moreys mo...
    so why are we in the room?

    I'm sure Harden wasnt happy with the various cost cutting moves... which is why it would make sense that the WB trade would be the big magnanimous gesture to appease their star...

    it just seems so logical to me...

    on a sidenote... we all balked at the contract Ariza signed.... most everybody (myself included) thought that 15M/yr was ridiculous... we were wrong.
     
    #575 kjayp, Jul 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2021
  16. LorneMalvo

    LorneMalvo Member

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    The Rockets didn’t even make the finals with Ariza? That’s the sum total of how good of a take you can have?
     
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  17. kjayp

    kjayp Member

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    my take on most of these rich asshats (Frittata, Harden, Trump) is that they become so insulated with people on the payroll, enablers and hanger-ons that they lose perspective...
    They lay out their bs to their inner circle and get support (great idea boss!) so they figure either they're right or they start to think that they have such a gift to spin the narrative that they can make their bs fly...

    and then when they get push back from people that arent indebted to them they adopt a credo like 'those that matter dont mind - and those that mind dont matter...'
    or you get the hubris of an MDA going on about "people don't know what they're talking about" when confronted on his short rotations (just prior to the SAS meltdown).

    I view it like women... most are lied to from an early age by guys trying to get a piece... they tell them they are right and their previous bf was out of line and that their sh*t dont stink, etc etc while trying to endear themselves to gain favor... Then they get the slap in the face as they get older and fewer and fewer guys are willing to placate them and tolerate their bs... lol
     
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  18. tinman

    tinman Member
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    Facts
     
  19. tinman

    tinman Member
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    Ariza only fans are dumb
    Probably as dumb as Lin only fans
    @Reeko
     
  20. DonatelloLimestone

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    Yea, the WB trade did make sense financially. In the nba, why do stars get to boss around their billionaire owners? BC the stars are underpaid. The top actual stars, have their own shoe level, generate a heavy majority of the revenue, interest, merchandise, and the nba markets it off of them. After them, the best contracts are rookies.
    WB was a bigger superstar, he beat cp3 in jersey sales, shoe sales, merchandise almost ever year. Sos as mentioned in the above post, we lose role players, assitstant coaches, staff things that most casuals won't read bc they aren't headliners, and then we spend big on the big splash of a name. Thats the landry's way. A good enough entertainmetn draw/product(a star) skimp on the margins, water down the drinks and you have your best shot of getting money.
    And then, outside of that...all of our moves are to maneuver under the tax...so if thats you're only example, once gain...you gotta consider nba economics man otherwise tilman's gonna keep sellng you the brooklyn bridge.

    And once again, Ariza contract. No one argues hes woth that, no one thinks JR smith, klove, tristan were orth their contract but the fact is you don't have leverage and when you're at the cap and competing you either sign him, sign adn trade to match CONTRACTS or you lose for nothing and hae to use your minimum or MLE.

    So thats fine you can say Ariza isn't worth it, but then what do we do about our window? Just give up a vital piece to the team, a locker room leader? WE ignored the MLE even, we left TPE sitting ,we only used the minimum. And once again, you sign ariza its a one year deal, no future ramifications. Then you can also trade him. but to do NOTHING....then no star in the nba will play with your franchise, further more to sgin minimums and trade them to get under the cap...a year away from being one game form the finals with your generational talent in his prime? Sounds like a good way to lose your star...and your Gm...and youre head coach...associate coach...CEO...assistant Gm...veterans...ok ok you get the point, but nah...they are all wrong adn dchris paul is so stupid keeps bringing up trevor ariza, I'm sure the message boards dudes know better than them and all their weird ver batum quotes.
     

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