The threats about reporting Clutch to the Rockets org were ridiculous. Further, I think a lot of people underestimate how busy Clutch is. Some of y’all live on the forums and that’s great, but Clutch doesn’t have that luxury. He dealt with the issue as soon as he saw it.
He mocked the Mormon faith before that thread by using the term "magic underwear". See the favorite Smith thread.
I agree that threatening to go to the Rockets was a bad direction to take it. I didn’t see that though from the majority of those upset about the decision to let Bobby back in. The dude is a cancer on the forums, and makes this place worse, period. People have been on here a long time and care about this place, so emotions are going to be high.
The Crossfit thread? I looked at it, and it looked like Kev-C was trying to move away from others making the attacks. I don't know. Or am I not looking at the right thing?
Snow Villiers was banned for BBS Multiple Personality disorder. Clutch explained his multiple accounts in another Petition thread. Other bans like prohibido were clearly cleanup bans. You don't just ban the perp who creates the multiple accounts, but you trash the other accounts, too. Or, like kevC, he launched a stealth attack on Clutch via email or other social network, that we also didn't see.
Whoever sent that message to Clutch on Facebook is an idiot for sure. But I think automatically assigning the blame for that on kevc is premature without anything to back it up (unless I missed something).
It certainly seems extreme on the surface, but let me provide a counter-view (I'm not endorsing this, but I understand it). I don't know the exact relationship between the site and the Rockets, but if I'm the Rockets organization and a message board that I have tangentially endorsed is potentially becoming a forum for racism and hate speech, I *want* to know that kind of thing. It's then up to me to decide whether I am OK with that and whether to take any action. What I don't want is to learn months or years later that I was associated with something like that. For years here, there has been a delicate line to walk in the D&D, especially. That's even harder in a post-Trump world where tensions are even higher on both sides. But BtG is so far beyond any normal line that it understandably raises questions for people. It's pretty typical of grass roots protests to contact sponsors of companies/organizations/politicians/etc that provide a safe space for hate speech/etc. I don't think Clutch is actually doing or encouraging that and I'm sure he hates being a referee in all this, but BtG is the definition of that kind of a person. He was banned for good reason and could have been banned years earlier for any of hundreds of other posts, and if a fake apology is all it takes to bring back a racist who has, in his first few days back, already again been beligerent and rude and all the other things he's known for, I can see why people would want to take their concerns elsewhere if they don't feel they were being listened to here. If this was just a random private forum, that would be one thing. But if in some either formal or informal way, it's associated with the Rockets organization, that makes things a bit more complicated for everyone.
If neither of you have done so already, I strongly suggest that both @Bobbythegreat and @Granville put each other on ignore. I am sure there will be hard feelings for quite some time but there is no need to let any argument escalate to that level again. It would be best just to steer clear of each other.
I don't think prohibido was an alt account associated with them, just had a strong opinion about this ordeal. Didn't really insult anyone either, at least to my knowledge.
I believe Clutch. He's assigning the connection. There is a lot of history with kevC attacking Clutch's integrity. That connection does not surprise me one bit. No one else yesterday made fun of Mormons on this board. kevC did in two separate BBS threads, yesterday (with crossfit reference, too...twice), and then Clutch gets a FB attack with crossfit and Mormon insults. coincidence? If you intend to say Clutch has no proof, I'd like to remind you that that is a BTG classic argument, too. I'm so confused by this. what attacks was kevC trying ot move away from?
I might be missing something with KevC but I didn't notice a stealth attack in the CrossFit thread. It looked like he was trying to move past trolling and the attacks. So Snow Villers, Ray Parker, and Prohibido were all alternate accounts? I said before that banning alts and their creators are understandable. I also agree that posters crossed the line. Certainly, the Facebook attack crossed the line. I'm unclear what KevC did or that he was for sure the Facebook sender. Like I said, it isn't my decision. I would like to know because I would not want to accidentally cross a line that will get me banned. I also would hope that things that I didn't do were not blamed on me. With all of that being said, none of it was as bad as BobbytheGreat's post and subsequent "apology" that was really another attack on Granville. I think there is as much evidence that BruceAndre was an alt of Bobby's as there is that KevC sent the Facebook post... at least from what I've seen.
I view a voluntary contribution site as a little different than protesting a corporation selling its wares. I know you have drawn that distinction and are referring to the tangential endorsement by the Rockets. You raise an interesting point. All I can tell you is how I feel and felt while it was going down. There were at least 3 posters who raised it to the level of contacting the Rockets. It certainly didn't seem to be done in a "raise corporate awareness" or "look out for the Rockets" way. Instead, it looked liked entitled posters (for whom even a brief scan of their posting history would raise plenty of "red flags") hurling threats and demanding the site adhere to their wishes. This is not an after the fact view now that it has all gone down. I raised it at 6:27 last night and the barrage continued for hours. I think your view (while well thought out and expressed) taken to its logical conclusion, means that Clutch should just shut down D&D and save himself the headache of being threatened every time someone didn't like his decision on a particular act particularly as you put it in this post-Trump world. I would hate for that to happen.
This doesn't get enough attention, BruceAndre increased his posting 10x while Bobby was banned, used the exact same vocabulary and condescending posting style. Weirdly defended Bobby and tried to tell people how intelligent he was, then never logged in again shortly before Bobby was unbanned.
When people were making gay slurs, KevC asked that the trolling be moved to another thread, and that it be stopped. Actually, I didn't read the initial post. I kept pressing on the last one upon which was commented upon. I see the attack on the religion. I didn't before. I generally don't get involved in all of the website politics, just the actual governing politics. I don't know. Maybe he was trying to show hypocrisy in allowing attacks on one group to be forgiven but not attacks on another group? I don't know. I obviously have not been paying close enough attention.
You’re really reaching trying to defend someone who kept telling Tinman to commit suicide. Also he dropped a gay slur of his own in that CrossFit thread towards the bottom. Maybe, just maybe he is just as vile a human being as BTG?
It was very obvious to me that this was what he was doing...not just the Crossfit thread, but also an identical "magic underwear" comment in a Smith thread yesterday. Both threads, both comments are a strong match to the FB attack. and keep in mind: if you say that (plus long history with Clutch) is not enough proof, remember that "where's the proof" argument is a favorite of BTG's too.
No, none of that is as vile as BTG's attack or as personal or directed at a member of a poster's family. I'm not excusing the attacks in that thread. I realized today that I missed the initial one, entirely. The only problem I see is that having BTG back again has us trying arguing about who's offensive posts were the least or most offensive. It's a lot of mess over a poster who only detracts value from the site.
I understand your point. I am coming from the following: Assume I frequent a business that I really enjoy and have been doing so for a long time. Then, the owner of the business does something that I strongly disagree with. He explains his position, but it doesn’t satisfy me. I want more. The owner isn’t willing, so I tell him that I intend to contact some governing body and complain about his actions. I tell some acquaintances and they strongly agree with me. Why should I or those acquaintances continue to frequent that business?
It seemed to me as well from reading those threads that they were trying to make an equivalence like you are suggesting here. They definitely went at Clutch personally to attempt to make him feel the way that @Granville felt when @Bobbythegreat attacked his child and to be honest Clutch somewhat validated what they did by permabanning them. What they did was childish, but going after someone's child especially under the circumstances that @Bobbythegreat did is subhuman. Clutch let him back on the condition of sincerely apologizing to @Granville and as that condition still remains to be fulfilled Bobby should remain in timeout with the other two until he can work up a heartfelt apology. Also, the other two should similarly be given an opportunity to repent for their actions.
