Things like this give liberals a bad name: http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/petaads_000825.html ------------------ "I'll drop kick those f*ckin' dogs if they come anywhere near me." visit www.swirve.com
Pardon me, if I offend PETA lovers everywhere, but what's sickening is that you'll fight for animal rights so vehemently while at the same time ridicule a human's medical condition like this. I heard about this earlier yesterday and couldn't believe it. ------------------ Falk that Mo Fo!!!
I believe very strongly in animal rights but I cannot stand PETA. They used to be fairly innocuous and educational. Now, they are just a side show. They are NOT representative of those of us who support animal rights at all. I hold ALL life sacred. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
Not to put you on the defensive, Jeff (because you know I have a great deal of respect for you)...but when you say you respect ALL life...does that include unborn life?? Just curious... ------------------
Not trying to speak for Jeff, but I don't believe a life is a life until it can live on its own. Now I'm sure someone will come in here and tell me that's a convenient definition so you can go around promoting the slaughter of innocent lives or something. ------------------ "I'll drop kick those f*ckin' dogs if they come anywhere near me." visit www.swirve.com
It's tacky... but that's the most effective thing I've ever seen. Had somebody passed out a leaflet would you have ever remembered that milk could potentially cause prostate cancer? I wouldn't. This is burned into my brain now. And I can see their standpoint. It's basically 1982, everyone's embracing the status quo and your mom's about to buy a new VCR (currently the acronym of choice is 'SUV'). The world is going to hell. What do you do? Make everyone mad... invite a suit. Damn, that's effective. ------------------ I've posted so much that what I say must be true. The latest on Maurice Taylor
That is a pretty broad definition, Rocketman. By that standard, we could say that people aren't really alive until they're 16 and can legally get a job and fend for themselves. ------------------ HoustonSportsBoard.com
Not the boring abortion debate again... Can't we keep that in one thread at a time? ------------------ I've posted so much that what I say must be true. The latest on Maurice Taylor
Max: It is really hard to explain because of my personal beliefs. It would take volumes to really explain it, but I'll try and do it in a few sentences. I don't necessarily support abortion but I am pro-choice. The concept of life beginning at conception is a Christian belief or, to be more consistent, an Abrahamic belief - religions in the line of Abraham including Jewish, Muslim and Christian. I was once a born-again Christian and remember all too well the endoctrination I recieved on conception. While I don't totally disagree, I recognize that the lives that are here on this planet hold value as well. Because we cannot be certain that there are souls that go to hell when they are aborted, it is beyond our capacity to regulate. It is a very difficult topic that leaves even me a little torn. It would take a lot longer to explain the spiritual reasons behind my beliefs and I won't bore anyone with them here. Suffice it to say that we live lives of contradiction and it is difficult to escape. We can only keep learning and working at it. I wish I had all the answers and I wish I didn't end up in a web of circular logic every time I tried to grasp concepts like this one, but, unfortunately, all I can do is keep trying to figure it out like the rest of us. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
Jeff -- I understand what you're saying...you could argue right back that my views on the death penalty are inconsistent with my views on abortion (even though in my mind they're squared). Who knows?? But after becoming a father, my feelings on the beginnings of life have only been strengthened. I am certain my child had an identity in the womb. But again, that's my belief. I am absolutely positive however that partial birth abortion is WRONG. I'm sorry, but when the child is seconds away from drawing it's first breath and then either has its head crushed or its brain sucked out, we have a real problem!! This sounds like something done in a concentration camp. I can't for the life of me understand how anyone can think this is OK. Or how our president can keep vetoing bipartisan bills to have it outlawed. ------------------
MadMax, that's one thing we agree on. Unless, the mother is sure to die, there is no way that should be legal. Even though it's extremely rare, it should never happen, except in that instance. ------------------ "I'll drop kick those f*ckin' dogs if they come anywhere near me." visit www.swirve.com
Damnit, now you guys have me off topic too. Because of a certain clause in the partisan bill that demands the ban be unconditional.... regardless of the health of the mother. The other clause that most democrats would like to include seems ludicrous to me... rape/incest concerns. I'm sorry, but if you were raped or had incest... you more than likely could have taken care of that little cell mass in your tummy before the 8th month. ------------------ I've posted so much that what I say must be true. The latest on Maurice Taylor
Achebe: While I mostly agree with you, the argument that someone who was violently traumatized could think to take care of something before their 8th month is a massive generalization. Some women are NEVER the same after an event like a rape or incest. Assuming they have the resources, family stability, friends and access to medical attention not to mention psychiatric care, then they might be in a position to think clearly or at least have help to do so. Otherwise, it is a stretch to say that they should know better. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
But from an advertising standpoint, they really miss the point -- they could care less about any link between milk and prostate cancer. It's a protest against dairy farms. (I would guess they feel that dairy farms have bad conditions, because I don't think you actually hurt a cow by milking it. ) The partial birth abortion legislation doesn't include a provision regarding the health of the mother being a factor -- because it's not. There is no case where partial birth abortion would be an answer to a choice between the life of the baby or the mother. There are cases where a pregnancy is terminated because a physician feels that it would harm / kill the mother to carry the baby to term. In this case, the abortion would occur much earlier -- most likely before the fetus is viable. In the case of a partial birth abortion -- the baby is at term. The most traumatic part of childbirth, labor, has already occurred. In fact, labor continues after the fetus is killed. If the life of the mother were really in danger 9 months into the pregnancy, the answer would be a c-section, not an abortion. ------------------ Stay Cool... [This message has been edited by dc sports (edited August 28, 2000).]
Is this true dc sports? I read that the dozen times where this atrocity actually occurred last year were all because of the mothers' healths. ------------------ I've posted so much that what I say must be true. The latest on Maurice Taylor [This message has been edited by Achebe (edited August 28, 2000).]
Vegans hold that a culture dependant upon animal enslavement is a bad thing. Therefore, if people aren't drinking milk... then they've accomplished their goals. ------------------ I've posted so much that what I say must be true. The latest on Maurice Taylor
Jeff, I trust all of your intuitions, and I have made this same argument myself a 1000 times. Personally I feel that legislating child birth is a bad thing in general. It is also, obviously, asinine & naive to ever mandate or expect someone to be rational in the most sensitive of moments. I feel ridiculous trying to make this argument. Taking a hardline stance when it comes to someone that has been traumatized by such a crime is as inhuman as the act itself. Also, as soon as we conclude that the infrastructure is in place to make sure that every single woman that has been raped has the adequate support & means to take care of or terminate the pregnancy (in its first few months), then some counterexample will arise to question the law. If the law isn't there, then there is not a problem. My problem is that I flat out think that abortion is immoral. I could never approve of making it illegal... but if there are opportunities to at least limit its occurrence ("legal and rare") then by all means, make it so.
Partial Birth Abortions -- I'll back up some, because I havn't really gone to any lengths to research this. I probably shouldn't have given an absolute answer, but... The health professionals I've talked to have held this position. I do work at a hospital that delivers a bunch of babies, and does perform abortions but not partial birth. I have a couple of buddies that are residents, two in OB/GYN, and I'll ask one for clarification next time I see them. (I did work for a hospital based ambulance service for six years, but now work on the financial side.) From the standpoint of just making an argument, one would have a hard time stating that this type of an abortion is done on the basis of it being done only on the basis of saving a mother's life -- because you would have to assume that the fetus isn't viable on it's own. By the time partial birth abortion is considered, the baby is developed enough to survive, or it never will be. There are conditions which threaten a mother's life earlier in the pregnancy. Pre-ecclampsia / ecclampsia (basically, the mother's body gets an allergic reaction to the baby) are probably the most common, though usually the baby can be saved, and can live a normal life. Multiple pregnancy is also am increasing problem -- too many babies to carry to term. In these cases, abortion might be necessary early in the pregnancy. Logically, I can't come up with any scenerio where a woman could go into or be brought into labor, and be saved by pausing delivery long enough to kill the baby before allowing the head to fully emerge. In fact, it would seem safer for the mother to not delay delivery. "Got Milk" -- I guess the vegans do win. I'm with Jeff though -- these people have killed all their credibility. How could anyone take them seriously after the bizarre things they have done. Drink beer, not milk. It sounds more like a party theme. ------------------ Stay Cool... [This message has been edited by dc sports (edited August 28, 2000).] [This message has been edited by dc sports (edited August 28, 2000).]
