Remembering back 9/14/01 In the coming days and weeks we will see Bush and gang who care more about international oil companies and other international corporations than the majority of the people in this or any other country use your patriotism against you. 1) As I said before I'm in favor or using force to get the perpetrators. 2) As I said before and repeated above I'm in favor of using force against the perpetrators. 3) Aside from the mission to bring the perpetrators to justice, which most Americans agree on, Bush and gang will try to accomplish their own domestic political and economic goals -- increase the profits of their oil and defense owning stock buddies, who will kick back to them in the next election cycle. Before this is over they may even put in an emir or two in Iraq to give us cheap oil. Bush and gang will promptly proclaim them democrats. 4) Their patriotism won't extend to rolling back the massive tax breaks they just gave themselves so we can finance the war. They prefer debt as they hold the bonds and it is another excuse to claim to be "compassionate conservatives" who just have to defund headstart, can't give our parents prescription durg benefits etc. because "we just don't have the money". They don't mind how much interest we have to pay them on their bonds or on our mortgages, which they hold. 5) They aren't greatly in favor of civil liberties and are already calling for restrictions beyond common sense agree upon changes in air traffice security. 6) Their sons and daughter aren't be going to get killed. Out of all of Congress only one son or daughter went to the Gulf War. I believe Ross Perot, who was against the Iraq war for oil, cited this fact. It will thus be very easy to have "mission creep" to use one of their phrases. since it ain't their kids. Some people on the board are already calling on us to occupy the whole Middle East and other parts of the world. It will just be the sons and daughters of the poor and middle class who are trying to earn college money or a life outside the ghetto or barrio. 7) The timetable of the operation and the lives of Americans will be sacrificed to fit the needs of the mid-term elections or even Bush's reelection campaign if it can possibly be done. (A history lesson: in the summer of 1972 Nixon realized to his horror the N. Vietnamese were going to agree to our conditions for peace. It would happen before the election and S. Vietnam might even fall before the election. This was viewed as bad for his reelection chances, so we backed off and 20,000 more Americans and hundreds of thousand more Asians died. ) Similarly Bush and gang desperately need to be seen flag waving when the midterm elections come. Bush sure can't win it on his command of economic policies or speaking ability. 8) They wont put into effect more just policies toward the Arab World that will help to prevent the next generation of terrorist from forming to replace the terrorist cells they will destroy. Given the Arabs a higher price for their oil or helping them develop might lower oil company profits. In conclusion, support a carefully crafted plan to get the perpetrators, but don't let old fashioned US patriotism be used against you to accomplish goals which are mainly in the interest of Bush and gang . Insist that the root socio-political causes of hatred toward Americans be addressed not just merely eliminating current terrorist cells. After all we're the ones giving our lives, not the politicians kids. It is our children not Bush and gang's who will give our lives if they eliminate Bin Laden , but just plant the seeds for the next generation of terrorists. http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=22004&highlight=patriotism
Damn. That was impressive. Kind of sad that every single person in that thread jumped on you for being honest and not letting your emotions overwhelm you. Anyone apologize to you yet? They should.
All I knew was that on 9/14, I wanted some terrorists to die. The Bush Admin raped us royally because of that sentiment.
Pretty nice foreshadowing of the past 8 years there. Many of our civil liberties have been taken away, and the same pattern has continued under the Obama administration.
it was a terrible post then. looking back, it's an even worse post. you couldn't even wait a whole week to politicize the most tragic event in the history of the US. I was gonna post this in your other dumbass thread tryin to blame Bush for the mental capacity of a US soldier. don't you know how the US Army works boy? 5 tours in Iraq? wtf??? US Army is voluntary, why don't you blame his sorry ass CO? sucka. shame on you glynch.
Me too. Which is what makes glynch's post all the more impressive: he was able to get past the natural (and justified) craving for justice and the over-the-top brand of "patriotism" (read: mindless compliance) that overtook America and look at the problems our possible solution would bring up. Which makes their actions all the more contemptable. To take advantage of someone is one thing. To wait until they are at their most vulnerable to take advantage of someone is a particular kind of evil I like to call "Cheney-esque". I don't always agree with glynch, but I gotta admit he nailed this one.
Glynch, As someone whose views have changed dramatically since those days, I can honestly say you nailed it. And for me, I was wrong. DD
It's never wrong to step back, look at a situation with detachment, and figure out what the hell is going on or is likely to go on. Doesn't matter how tragic the situation is. I think a lot of people in that thread owe you an apology.
I disagree with the timing of your post Glynch. While many things you wrote turned out to be true, you saw from the reaction that being right isn't always the best thing. Had you waited a few more weeks your post may have been far more effective. Criticized for sure, but perhaps won you at least a few more people who would have valued and listened. I would not have been one of them as I was pretty supportive of Bush back then. But hindsight is 20/20. Still, the timing was bad, really bad.
I really disagree with that. A responsible citizenry should not be compelled to shut up for even 1 day, let alone "a few more weeks". We're not talking about some personal interaction between friends, where the only thing at stake is someone's feelings. If enough people don't let their voices be heard, it could cost millions of dollars, and thousands of lives.
Do you remember what the American psyche was on 9/14? Did you see the vitrol thrown at him? I am not saying he should not express his opinion, only that he needed to choose the right moment and that it was not on 9/14. Look at the reaction, did he affect a single person? No. Not one. His post was wasted. I didn't say it was a bad post, in hindsight is was a great one. But had he waited for feelings to calm down it would have had more impact. In fact, many other people made the same arguments in December during the run up to the Iraq war.
More people from that thread need to step up and Acknowledge it for what it really was Glynch - Nice Foresight Rocket River
Nothing wrong with timing when you're right... Not to mention in about two weeks after this post, our troops were in Afghanistan, fighting the REAL enemies...
I do see it. And I can't figure out why think collective hysteria is self-justifying. Those people were wrong. He was right.
But the problem is this: had he waited for feelings to calm down, who knows how many decisions would have been made in the intervening days that would have impact for years, perhaps decades to come. You can look back now and say that we needed a few days to heal as a nation before anyone should have spoken out, but at the time, some folks were calling for an all-out bombing of any country where they spoke Arabic. It really was a time of group hysteria, and those are the times when voices of respectful dissent and reason are needed the most. That was a pretty gutsy post at the time, and it was very prescient. Give glynch his due.
It was the right time LevelHeadedness was needed America was turning into a Lynch Mob Wanting some justice. . . even if it was the wrong people [we have a history of this on the microcosm and this took it to the macro level] The History of Lynch Mobs was to grab any person . . didn't matter who . . Grab them and lynch them guilt or innocence of due process was not at a premium We marched to Iraq . . . and they were not the people who did this .. . . We were irrational We needed more like Glynch and less Warmongering Rocket River
