In the last year since 9/11 and well before that, we in the west have often struggled with the foreign nature of Islam, whereas in my studies I have seen that the true nature of Islam is a parrallel to much of our core beliefs. The important factor I feel in understanding a religion is separating the cultural biases. Every religion has been, and will continue to be used as a tool of power, with individuals choosing what they wish to promote to increase their own power. As the muslim world ( post-colonization ) is a little over 50 years old and remains one of the financially, politically and scientifically averse regions in the world. Because of this, individuals have been able to manipulate the religion to serve their own purposes. But look at the beginnings of the religion, and how they differ from common misconceptions about muslims today: Misconception about Islam: Against Capitalism, western finance and economics. Truth: The original muslims were traders and the religion promotes commerce as to how the renaissance happened with Islam being the road between the east and the west. The Islamic system of finance is a capital markets/venture capital system that is against interest for the sake of manipulation and "interest" slavery. As an individual with an "economic" state of mind, a system based entirely on capital markets and venture capital and group ownership of assets could even be more beneficial to society than an interest based system. Misconception about Islam: Women have no rights. Truth: In the original Islamic Arabia as well as in the Koran, Muslims were the first people ever to give rights to woman in the forms of inheritance, alimony and rights within the household. Its ironic that as horrible as the generalized "muslim" world is with women; Pakistan had a woman, Benazir Bhutto, as the Prime Minister and head of the country a few years back. Indonesia, one of the largest muslim nations in the world, has a democratically elected women as the head of the government; yet the United States never has. In the West, a nun seen dressing modestly and covering her hair in the church is seen as respectful and dignified, yet a muslim woman doing it is oppressed. The hard part is differentiating culture with religion. Do muslims see Slobodan Milosevic and David Koresh as the examples of chastity in christianity? Why are Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden seen as those of Islam.
you're absolutely right... but it's particularly hard to distinguish islam from the culture of nation-states when those nation-states are theocracies.
Dont insult anyone's intelligence with that horsesh!t comparison. Especially Koresh. Koresh brainwashed HIS OWN people and ended up convincng HIS OWN people to die for what they believe in by more or less, killing THEMSELVES...not 3000 innocent victims...also, Koresh didnt hate Americans. EDIT: I realize (before you jump at me) that you werent comparing what the guys did...but to even mention them in the same sentence is absurd in regards to how the are perceived
wait a second...it can't be ignored, though...milosevic did commit horrible atrocities in the name of Christ...he made the cross a symbol of fear for people (which is abhorable to me, as a christian). koresh DID intend to harm others...he said so. i don't agree with the way the govt handled him, but he was no prince...and i certainly wouldn't want others to judge MY faith by his deeds. i imagine there are many muslims who feel the same as i do when they hear about OBL as a spokesman for islam. my only concern is sheer numbers...how many agree with OBL? is the religion itself corrupted to a HUGE degree by these kind of guys?? i don't know the answer to that question...
Brain, your bland scathing humor brings joy to my days. You must take your writing to a grander scale! I grew up in Saudi Arabia because my dad was in the Military. Muslims are just like everyone else - a slave to their heritage. Some of them are insane, just like with any religion. Unfortunately, they are on the whole a lot more impoverished and this is where extremists can make the biggest impressions, just like Korresh did with all those hicks in Waco. Hopefully we will be able to erradicate this terror problem without causing permenant resentment in the region. not likely eh?
FD, Your main points are very good, as usual, but your repeated mention of Koresh is both inapproriate and unnecessary, IMHO. The underlying truths in your points are strong enough to stand on their own and don't need propping-up from bad analogies. Milosevic was probably a better analogy, but muslims the world over didn't need to fear him. He didn't have a problem with Islam per se (as far as I know), but with an ethnic minority in his country which happened to be muslim. Interestingly though, with Milosevic, other Western Nations are who ended up defending the muslims.
this is such a crucial point...i wish we could communicate this to the Arab world better to help drive home the point that this is not another Crusade with Bush playing the role of King Richard....
Cohen, In the Bosnia situation, yes the West did step in, but after a good number of the muslims had perished in the concentration camps or fled the country. The problem I have with the UN/West in that issue is that Iran, Pakistan, Turkey and other muslim countries for years tried to send in troops or munitions so at least the bosnian's/muslims could fight back. I helped the Bosnian refugees when they came to houston, I tried to help them find jobs and assimilate themselves into the west. I remember seeing a child start crying and shaking in fear when seeing a cross around someone's neck. We let them be slaughtered and thrown out for years and we didn't let anyone help, then later on we came in and ousted Milosevic after he did the dirty work that everyone wanted: get the brown muslims out of Europe. Thats the story directly from Bosnians, the US/West/UN's alleged No-fly zone directly denied countries access to help a people. And that is the same b.s. thats happening in Palestine. You have occupied, antagonized people that are being oppressed, and when they fight back against tyrranny, a principle in our declaration of independance, they are crushed by our dollars. NJ Rocket, You are Jewish, does that mean that I should see every post you make as anti-muslim? No. Should I stereotype all Jews as evil because of Israel's actions? No. Should I characterize you as a thief, because most of the heinous financial crimes from Andy Fastow of Enron, Kozlansky of Tyco, Micheal Milken, Ivan Boesky, Marc Rich, and a host of others from your religion and race committed these acts. No. Not so much fun to be stereotyped is it? How do you think it feels to have these people from anywhere in the world come here to this country and be here for a week, and people look at them as more American than me because i'm from Pakistan. I was born in New York, lived my entire life here and i'm looked at with contempt at times. Your stereotypes are the same attitudes that idiots in the East use as ideology to attack innocent westerners. They think that all westerners are guilty for the actions of a few, that is wrong and so is it in the US.
wow..i had the EXACT same experience...literally, the exact same experience. and it was quite horrifying.
FD...if you are as American as you claim to be, then you will understand the suspicions surrounding middle eastern looknig men these days. To not understand why thais the way things are now is being totally ignorant. If you want to stereotype me as a Jew and decide you dont want to invest in a company that I am responsible for managing..so be it...that is your choice...you are allowed to feel how you want because this is America...However, If you are telling me that I am a racist or a racial profiler because I would look at someone THESE DAYS differently because of what they look like then I dont know what to tell you. (im assuming you are referring to the other thread about the Florida highway thing as well) We, as Americans are on High Alert. I would hope if YOU ,as an American ,saw something suspicious that you would report it as well...if ity made you feel better to , maybe afterwards, report a white or black guy for doing something suspicious, then go right ahead...you have that right...because this is America
And one more thing FD...if Osama Bin Laden was committing financial crimes against Americans and guys like Ivan Boesky were trying to KILL Americans for no other reason than being American, then I would hope you would report every suspicious looking Jew you saw.
Seriously FD, special attention must be paid to middle easterners in this country today. Don't be stupid and say otherwise. Besides when I used to enter Saudi Arabia I used to get a strip search all the time because they thought an American teen would be bringing drugs or p*rn into the country. All the Saudi kids would go by but me a my friends would be detained for an extra three hours to make sure we were ok.
Originally posted by F.D. Khan Cohen, In the Bosnia situation, yes the West did step in, but after a good number of the muslims had perished in the concentration camps or fled the country. The problem I have with the UN/West in that issue is that Iran, Pakistan, Turkey and other muslim countries for years tried to send in troops or munitions so at least the bosnian's/muslims could fight back. My understanding is that there is almost always an arms embargo on Warring factions. The failure generally is not the arms embargo, but the hesitancy of the UN to take appropriate action. My rudimentary and maybe simplistic understanding of this situation is the the US expected Europe to take control of the situation through the UN, but it never happened so we utlitmately got dragged in to put some teeth in Milosevic's butt. I helped the Bosnian refugees when they came to houston, I tried to help them find jobs and assimilate themselves into the west. I remember seeing a child start crying and shaking in fear when seeing a cross around someone's neck. I recall you mentioning that. Very sad for a child to tremble in fear at anything. We let them be slaughtered and thrown out for years and we didn't let anyone help, then later on we came in and ousted Milosevic after he did the dirty work that everyone wanted: get the brown muslims out of Europe. I don't accept that. Europe is historically slow to take military action. Whether is muslims, poles, czechs, etc. that need protecting. Thats the story directly from Bosnians, the US/West/UN's alleged No-fly zone directly denied countries access to help a people. And that is the same b.s. thats happening in Palestine. You have occupied, antagonized people that are being oppressed, and when they fight back against tyrranny, a principle in our declaration of independance, they are crushed by our dollars. Your are far too bright to reduce the Israeli-Palestinian conflict down to a simple, one-sided paragraph. I try to be as unbiased as possible when it comes to that, I hope that you strive for that also. Biased views will not help resolve that problem. BTW, today is the 20th anniversary of Sabra and Shatila (I think we both know what Sharon is made of).
The capital markets in the United States are the most developed of any country on earth. Our debt and equity markets (and all the derivatives of them) dwarf their nearest competitors (London and Tokyo) in both size and efficiency. Likewise, venture capital investments in the United States dwarf their nearest competitors, thanks in large part to the strength of the capital markets. Without a strong capital markets system, you do not have an exit to your investment, nor do you have adequate funding sources to grow a business. To claim that "the Islamic system of finance" is a capital markets/venture capital system is downright absurd, and to assert that bringing that style of economic organization to the United States may improve our economy is downright ludicrous. No one can compete with the capital markets and venture capital investment that America has. No one. It is the model that has spurred entrepreneurial growth and risk taking, which has in turn led to the U.S. economy being the strongest on the face of the earth. An economic system devoid of interest rates has a fundamental weakness -- capital pricing. How do you do it? The failure to put a value on money (interest rates) completely undermines 1) your currency 2) asset values and 3) economic flexibility. Without a method of pricing capital that is based on market forces (as interest rates are), you are far less agile in reacting to changes in economic conditions. This results in inefficiency through the failure to appropriately price assets. The Islamic system of finance is stuck in the Middle Ages (as are their views towards women). The chains that hold it back are the blind, strict adherence to religious beliefs.
I've met quite a few Muslim people and they've all been nothing but kind and compassionate. Lest we all forget a 7-foot guy from Nigeria. Christiantiy, in its earliest incarnations, was cruel, senseless and mysoginistic. There are times today when it is STILL that way. An important distinction to make is between the RELIGION and the CULTURE of a society. In the Arab world, there is poverty that is beyond belief. I've been to Egypt and I can tell you that if you think we have homeless problems, you cannot imagine the state of living there. For some, the church is all they have and, sadly, many clerics have used this power to manipulate their practitioners. However, it is really no different than how Christians manipulated their own followers during the crusades. The propoganda of the early Catholic Church certainly rivaled that of the Middle Eastern fundamentalists today. Even with all our sophistication and wealth, there are still fanatics like Hitler or Milosovich or McVeigh who manage to slip through the cracks and distort an otherwise peaceful religion. Religion, in those instances, was just the tool of power. There are still groups that believe God wants us to have slaves. They are motivated by Christianity as well. What altered society away from a brutal and dictatorial religious state in Europe was education. As people learned to read and the printing press became more prominent, they became empowered. The same kind of empowerment is necessary in the Middle East to help lift them out of poverty and the cycle of violence. Instead of accepting that an entire society is bad, check history. Chances are, you can probably replace "bad" with "hopeless" almost every time. By the same token, many in the Middle East simply have nothing to live for which makes them prime candidates for religious fanatacism. Religion and the right wing politics that go with it in that country GIVE THEM something to live for - a cause of righteousness. Without education, most of them will never know any better. It doesn't make what they do right in the slightest. But, it is nothing more than history repeating just in a different part of the world.
I'll certainly have more to comment on the rest of this later, but on this point specifically... 1. Osama bin Laden - takes ALL his actions in the name of Islam. Has support from religious figures within Islam outside of his immediate group. Has support financially within Islam outside of his immediate group. Has refuge within Islam outside of his immediate group. Thousands of Muslims rally around the world chanting his name. 2. Saddam Hussein - claims to be Muslim and has been protected and shielded from action by Islamic allies. What else should we think when the Arab League says do not attack him BECAUSE he is Muslim? What else are we to think when his state run paper says 'God's Punishment' on the subject of 9/11? 3. Slobodan Milosevic & Koresh - no support outside their immediate camps. Both taken out by so-called (and probably mislabelled) Christian governments. Milosevic for crimes against Muslims. As for the arms embargo, that was on BOTH Serbia AND Bosnia, and the embargo was made by a secular institution, not a Christian one. If Koresh had a worldwide network of Christians funnelling him cash, and hiding him out, you might have a point. As it is you are just being absurd.
those are some pretty strong points, hayes..particularly #2. i don't think ALL muslims follow this crappy logic...but the question is whether or not enough of them do to be able to say accurately, "this is islam." again...i don't know the answer to that question...or maybe it's impossible to call anything "islam" because it is all different depending on each interpretation...but in the same token then, nothing could be "christian" because there are many more interpretations of what that means.
