Pali State or No Pali state.. Hamas will attack Jews

How about we give people food first? Water would be nice too especially since their Jewish "neighbors" get to keep their lawns green.

 

Violence begats violence and the cycle continues.

Both sides are wrong, in my opinion.

 

I know what you mean. Isn't it strange how you can literally see the continual cycle at work here. One kills someone and they are bombed. Another boms someone and the other conducts a raid that kills people.

It is literally and I-hit-you-you-hit-me scenario. Normally, you don't see this type of consistent, long-term daily violence going in circles. You might see something happen that was predicated on an event a few months or years ago. You might even see little things here and there over time, but rarely is there a situation where nearly every day there is an act of violence that is a reprisal for the last act of violence.

What's even crazier is that it has been going on for centuries. It is really sad.

 

This is a tad bit confusing… But definitely not good news for Arafat.

United States links PA to "axis of evil" practicing terrorism
By Ellis Shuman February 14, 2002

For the first time, the United States yesterday included the Palestinian Authority in its short list of regimes that "practice terrorism." Speaking at a press conference following President George W. Bush's meeting with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, White House Spokesman Ari Fleischer said that the PA, along with North Korea, Iran and Iraq, was a regime of particular concern to the president in his global campaign against terrorism.

"The president has always been very clear, in all the statements he's made, whether it was about North Korea or Iran or Iraq, or anywhere, Palestinian Authority, that it's the people that the United States is concerned with, that they are victims of regimes that invite terrorism and then practice terrorism," Fleischer said.

The Bush administration has decided to tighten its inspection over funds transferred to the Palestinian Authority, Maariv reported. Administration officials suspect that some of these funds are financing terror actions against Israel, the paper said. Several months ago, the Administration cracked down on U.S.-based foundations believed to be channeling funds to support terrorist activities against Israel.

Despite the unprecedented American statements connecting the Palestinian Authority to terrorism, the Bush administration has signaled that it does not intend to sever its connections with Arafat's regime.

More at: http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0169.htm

 

Returning to the topic, "Pali Sate or no Pali State Hamas will attack Israel." Perhaps, but as an ex head of Israeli internal defense argues, it is doesn't matter what Hamas does, as it would be much easier to defend Israel if it withdrew to pre 1967 borders, had overwhelming world support and didn't have to defend against hamas attacks dozens of isolated settler camps, that are surrounded by "Palis" , as you call them.

It is for example much easier to defend Americans from attacks by Mexicans at the US border than it would be to defend isolated encampments of Americans living throughout Mexico City and other heavily populated areas of the country.

 

Interestingly, I read nothing about a Palestinian tate in there.

 

My taxes don't give money to Arafat as much as to Sharon so I think I have a moral duty to tell Israel since its my money they use.

 

boy:

Ahh, yes. And your nontaxable income goes to Hamas's "charity" fund, right?

BTW, I've noticed that no one has mentioned that the attack in question involved the destruction of an Israeli Merkava III tank. This is the first time one has ever actually been destroyed - ever. The method used raises some questions...

Apparently, a sophisticated magnetic mine with a shaped charge was used to blow the turret off the tank. The Palestinians have never demonstrated such knowledge before; in fact, the technique is known to have been used in only one battlefield in modern times: Afghanistan. It was a technique taught to the mujahadeen by the CIA, and it is known that Al Qaeda has used it in the past.

What does this mean? It means that there are Al Qaeda in the occupied territories. It means that Arafat is letting the bastards in.

I think Arafat has really signed his death warrant now. How long do you guys think we're going to keep the Israelis on a leash if we know that he is harboring Al Qaeda?

Your buddy is in trouble, boy.

 

Here's the Toronto Star on the tank attack and other recent events. 2/16/02

Israel suffers a double blow to army pride
Military setbacks raise spectre of `hopeless war' against uprising
Sandro Contenta
MIDDLE EAST BUREAU
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JERUSALEM — The Israeli army has suffered back-to-back blows that have raised serious questions about its effectiveness in fighting the Palestinian uprising.

The latest blow was largely self-inflicted and occurred during an army raid of a Palestinian-ruled village in the West Bank yesterday at dawn. The leader of the army's elite Duvedevan commando unit was killed by falling stones as army bulldozers were demolishing a Palestinian home.

Lt.-Col. Eyal Weiss, 33, was killed while interrogating a leading activist with Islamic Jihad, a militant group that rejects Israel's existence.

The loss of one of Israel's top commanders came on the heels of Thursday night's attack on an Israeli tank in the Gaza Strip, which killed three Israeli soldiers.

In less than 24 hours, the mighty Israeli army, with its arsenal of sophisticated warplanes and nuclear weapons, suddenly seemed humbled by a ragtag team of Palestinian militias.

Martin Van Creveld, a professor of military strategy, said the incidents will force Israel to rethink its regular use of tanks in the occupied territories and repeated raids of Palestinian towns in search of militants.

Van Creveld, who has written extensively about the Israeli army, said the army finds itself fighting a guerrilla war it can't win. Israel's 18-year-long war of attrition in south Lebanon, and the United States' experience in the Vietnam War, are classic examples of mighty armies losing to weaker enemies that get deadlier over time.

"For the Israeli army, it's a hopeless war," Van Creveld said in an interview.

All of the military strategies used by Israel so far — the siege of Palestinian towns, bombings from warplanes and combat helicopters, assassinating militants and raiding towns — have only made Palestinian militants more determined and more cunning, he added.

The tank attack especially stunned Israelis. It was the first time Palestinians managed to destroy a tank during the 17-month-old uprising against Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The tank involved was a Merkava Mark 3, described by Israeli commentators as virtually indestructible, but blown apart by a massive, 100-kilogram roadside bomb planted by Palestinian militants.

The blast toppled the tank, likely detonated tank shells inside, and blew the turret right off.

"Whoever thinks you can fight this kind of war without casualties is wrong," Israeli Maj.-Gen. Yomtov Samiah told Army Radio.

But Rafi Mann, a columnist for the Ma'ariv newspaper, said the Palestinians had succeeded in damaging the symbol of Israeli power.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
`Whoever thinks you can fight this kind of war without casualties is wrong.'

Yomtov Samiah

Israeli Major-General

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"It's as if the terrorists, with their Kalashnikov rifles and homemade rockets, had succeeded in shooting down an F-16 warplane," he wrote.

"There was an atmosphere of shock" in the Israeli army after the attack, Mann added. He and other commentators noted that the uprising had quickly spiralled into a deadly mirror image of south Lebanon, where the Hezbollah guerrilla group forced an Israeli withdrawal two years ago.

The day the tank was attacked, the Israeli army was already under fire for conducting a massive and highly ineffective raid of the Gaza Strip. After launching the biggest invasion of Palestinian-ruled territory during the uprising, the army came away with 18 suspected "terrorists" — 16 of whom they released the next day.

Unnamed army commanders tried to deflect the criticism on to Israeli politicians, telling newspapers they needlessly raised the stakes with inflated rhetoric about homemade Palestinian rockets, dubbed Qassam-2s.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon had warned that use of the rockets would force a major escalation in the fighting, because Israel would never accept that its cities come under rocket fire.

The rockets, which have a range of about six kilometres, are highly inaccurate. Yet Israeli officials said they would change "the rule of the game" in the uprising if launched. But having witnessed Israeli helicopters launch 500 missiles, and warplanes drop 80 bombs — one of them weighing a tonne — Palestinians clearly aren't enamoured with the rules.

Sharon ordered the Gaza invasion when a homemade rocket hit an empty field inside Israel last Sunday. But by the time the heavy armour rolled in three days later, extremists and their rockets were nowhere to be found. Five Palestinians were killed during the raid.

Writing in the Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper, Alex Fishman said the Gaza raid was another example of "a clumsy army moving in a cumbersome manner, re-enacting over and over the image of Goliath facing David."

Yesterday's death of the top Duvedevan commander adds the image of "stupidity" to that of ineffectiveness, Van Creveld said.

The Duvedevan often raid Palestinian towns in the dead of night, dressed as Arabs, to capture or kill militants. In August, 2000, three Duvedevan soldiers were killed by members of their own unit in a botched attempt to arrest a leader of Hamas, a group responsible for a wave of suicide bomb attacks inside Israel.

Weiss died after the Islamic Jihad activist the army came to arrest barricaded himself in his home in the West Bank town of Saida. A gunfight erupted, and the activist only surrendered after army bulldozers began demolishing his house.

Weiss was searching him for bombs and questioning the militant when the wall of the home collapsed. Five Palestinians were arrested during the dawn raid, and one was killed.

Van Creveld said the freak accident will add to the already low morale of Israeli soldiers. At least 200 reserve soldiers have signed a petition stating that they will no longer serve in the occupied territories, citing shocking examples of abuse, including the shooting of unarmed children.

At least 844 Palestinians and 259 Israelis have been killed since the uprising against Israeli occupation began.

France and Russia called on Israel and the Palestinian Authority yesterday to co-operate to end the violence and renew peace talks, Reuters reported. "To eradicate terrorism, to create conditions of security and to build peace, there must be close co-operation between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, presided by its legitimate leader Yasser Arafat," a joint statement said.

 

First, I'm talking about centuries of fighting not decades. Second, is it really all that important who started it 50, 100, 200 years ago? At this point, that seems rather irrelavent.

 

I have supported Holy Land Foundation and until I see solid proof that is more than 'an informant told us they invited a speaker in one of their fundraisers that has been at fundraisers organized by Hamas 10 years ago' I don't believe that HLF has supported Hamas.

 

boy:

Neither you nor I know what the evidence is against the HLF. I do know for a fact that several prominent "charitable" organizations in the US have been funnelling $ to Hamas (and Hizbollah, and other Muslim Brotherhood organizations). You appear to be the only one who disputes that at this point.

So go ahead - keep giving your cash to Hamas. I expect you to do nothing less, as you have shown no inclination to do otherwise..

You have never even said "If I knew it was going to Hamas, then I wouldn't contribute". You have also stated here that you believe that Hizbollah should be a legal organization (whatever that means). Do I have to remind everyone with a quote?

I have just provided some evidence that Al Qaeda is inseparable from groups such as the Hamas and the Hizbollah - a proposition I have made for 5 months straight. You don't even bother trying to refute it; you just blindly state that your charity is innocent (thanks for the lack of evidence supporting your position, BTW - I'll believe the FBI until you actually provide some).

You support the Hizbollah and the Hamas. Admit it.

If your cause is worth other people dying for, the least you can do is come out of your hole and state your principles on the Internet. Or are you really just an unprincipled coward who wants to see Israeli - and American - civilians die???

Until you address those questions, I am inclined to think that you are a cowardly supporter of terrorism. You have shown me nothing that would make me think otherwise.

Prove me wrong, please.

 

Well, I hate to mention this when I think you're probably right...

but what about the Raissi situation? THat made me lose a little faith in our government's honesty. They kept on promising to supply evidence and charges.. but never did.

 

<B>What does this mean? It means that there are Al Qaeda in the occupied territories. It means that Arafat is letting the bastards in. </B>

Arafat may very well be supporting / working with Al Queda, but the fact that there are some there isn't evidence of that. There are Al Queda forces in something like 30 countries -- US included -- and those countries certainly aren't helping them and don't want them there. Al Queda goes where they want to go -- with or without permission from the host country. Unfortunately, they've proven to be quite good at that.