This is the worst thing I have seen yet. This time the children weren't collateral damage but were seen and shot on sight. I withdraw any sympathy I may have showed to the plight of the Palestinians. It is now time for the Israeli government to do whatever they deem fit in dealing with this. http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,69898,00.html KIBBUTZ METZER, Israel — Israeli leaders on Monday weighed how to retaliate after a Palestinian gunman crept into a communal farm and killed five Israelis, including a mother and her two young sons as she read them a bedtime story. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, a militant group loosely affiliated with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, claimed responsibility for the attack. Foreign Minister Benjamin Netanyahu repeated his long-standing call for "expelling Arafat's terror regime," and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon met with his new defense minister, Shaul Mofaz, to discuss a response. Sharon and Mofaz then toured Kibbutz Metzer, including the bedroom of the slain boys, Noam Ohion, 4, and his brother Matam, 5. A Sharon adviser, Raanan Gissin, said the response will be "within the parameters of the actions we have been taking in the past few months." That seemed to rule out expelling Arafat. Sharon has assured the United States he would not expel or harm Arafat even though he and other top decision-makers support the idea. The United States also wants to avoid antagonizing the Arab world and doesn't want to distract from its preparations for possible war with Iraq. The attack raised tensions in advance of a visit this week by U.S. envoy David Satterfield, who plans to discuss a U.S.-backed plan aimed at restarting Mideast peace negotiations. After going under a fence, the gunman reached the center of the community and entered a house where the lights were on, Lieber said. He shot dead Revital Ohion, 34, and the two boys. She was reading a bedtime story to her children when she first heard shots, which led her to call her ex-husband, Avi Ohion, relatives said. He heard the shots on the phone, and later collapsed in tears when he learned they had been killed, the relatives said. The gunman left the house and continued in the direction of the communal dining room where he met a couple taking a walk, Lieber said. He shot and killed the woman, while the man managed to flee. The kibbutz' mayor, Yitzhak Dori, 42, drove up in his car and was killed by the gunman, Lieber said. "There are no words to describe this," said Roni Cohen, the slain children's uncle. Terrified residents at Kibbutz Metzer spent the night huddled in their homes, fearful the gunman was still among them. By daybreak Monday, Israeli security forces said the attacker had fled, apparently to the nearby West Bank. After Israeli security forces allowed kibbutz residents out of their homes Monday morning, they gathered in the community's streets, crying and comforting one another. The shooting rampage began late Sunday night several hours after a car exploded near the farm, killing its two Palestinian occupants in what police believed was a failed suicide bombing. "We have a mother and her two children ... who are no longer with us, and they are victims of a war that has no end," Doron Lieber, a member of the farming community, told Israel Radio. Kibbutz Metzer is inside Israel proper, but is less than a mile from the border with northern West Bank, where many Palestinian attackers have come from. A bullet hole had pierced the wooden door to the single-story stucco house which had been attacked. On the porch were bikes, a rabbit, a bird cage and posters of the two boys who were killed, one of them shown strumming a guitar. The attack was a rare instance in which a Palestinian gunmen has been able to carry out an attack on a guarded community and escape without being killed himself. "The terrorist managed to infiltrate, massacre people ... he was shot at but unfortunately wasn't hit and it seems from all the signs he escaped," David Tzur, a commander in the border police, told Israel Radio. Members of the dovish community said they have had close relations with their Arab neighbors and support the establishment of a Palestinian state. "We still have good relations [with the Arabs]," said Lieber, upset at reporters who asked him about local security arrangements. In the afternoon village elders from nearby Israeli-Arab communities arrived in the kibbutz for a condolence visit. The attack came on the same day that officials from Arafat's Fatah movement and the militant Hamas group launched talks in Cairo. Fatah officials have said they were going to demand that Hamas halt suicide bombings inside Israel. However, Hamas says it will continue attacks, as does the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which is loosely linked to Fatah. "This attack was a message to the negotiators in Cairo that the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades will not stop its struggle and attacks against Israel," said a group spokesman in the northern West Bank, who gave his name as Abu Mujahid. Earlier Sunday, not far from Kibbutz Metzer, a car exploded and killed the two Palestinian occupants just as suspicious Israeli police moved to stop the vehicle. It was not clear whether the Palestinians detonated the bomb intentionally or by accident, police said. The car explosion was one of three instances Sunday in which Israeli authorities said they managed to prevent a planned suicide attack. Throughout the West Bank, Israeli troops have been in or near Palestinian cities for nearly five months, imposing curfews and tough restrictions on Palestinian movements as part of an effort to keep militants from launching attacks. Arafat has condemned suicide bombings, but says his security forces can't function with the Israeli troops currently controlling Palestinian areas. Several hours after the kibbutz shooting, Israeli helicopters fired rockets into a large car repair shop in downtown Gaza City, witnesses said. The shop was empty at the time of the attack shortly. There were no reports of casualties. An army spokesman said an Air Force helicopter fired four missiles at the shop, suspected of housing a weapons-making workshop. Meanwhile, Israel and the Palestinians were preparing written responses to a U.S.-backed peace initiative that calls for a provisional Palestinian state by 2003 and a permanent state in 2005.
And, of course, we should allow the Palestinians to do whatever they want because of Israeli-induced poverty that's inflicted their people with countless deaths and massive suffering for 50 years. *yawn*. Both sides are pretty terrible - they've both slaughtered innocents, committed atrocities, disregarded international standards, etc. I generally sympathize more w/the Palestinians because they're the "little guy" and Israel was arbitrarily created out of what was their homeland... but... both sides are pretty awful. I'm beginning to think we should just leave all of them to what they deserve - each other's company. Might be the best justice of all... let them learn to live together, or kill each other. Edit: from the text of the article, sounds like this was conducted by a fringe group; I'm sure you wouldn't want all conservatives judged by Timothy McVeigh, just like I wouldn't want all Leftists condemned because of that recent psycho that just got convicted. (forgot the name)
Let me tell you something. The Martyrs Brigade is a large organization...not some fringe militia full of whackos. When the Palestinian groups start busting into houses and murdering 4 and 5 year old children as they are being tucked into their beds it is time to say "Everybody out of the pool!" The fact that you equate that to anything that has been done in this region before is sick.
Refman: Sick? I'm of the opinion that the vast, vast majority of people are created, not born. The dominant conditions for the Palestinian people include poverty, hopelessness, rampant structual discrimination, and brutal repression. Of course there's going to be a lot of psychos. Personally, I find systematic persection by a purported Democracy much worse than a few criminals, not representative of a people at large, murdering some innocents. I find it sick that Americans just looooooove democracy and are oh so proud of our lack of structural discrimination... fail to understand that, in Israel, an entire class of people have been arbitrarily subjected to subhuman treatment for decades. Of course, that's going to create a terrible reaction. Killing children is wrong. But persecuting an entire people for decades has caused much, much worse harm.
let them learn to live together, or kill each other --------------------------------------------------------- I said the exact same thing last year in my history class and i got stomped on by everyone in the class. Ya its terrible on whats going on over there but its not our problem. Not to say who cares but lets face the problems in our country 1st before we try end something that has been going on for 100s of years. i just dont get it its "mission impossible"
Refman, I don't agree with what's going on in this whole thing from either side, but please make your statements more specific. Like the thread title could read Palestinian militants or terrorists or extremists, but saying just Palestinians infers that average Palestinian walking around is responsible for the BS going on. I would think most Israeli and Palestinian civilians have nothing to do with all this and would hope it all ended yesterday.
rocketfan83: Generally, I don't agree with the "it's not our problem" statement. I believe in international mediation of local disputes. However, some of the stuff going on there is simply sickening. Whether the specific incidents that Refman loves to post about, or the systemic ruination of an entire people... have disgusted me to the point where I don't want anything to do with it. Even if we forcibly implemented "justice..." I'm no longer sure that it would solve the long-term problem... this issue probably could have been solved a long time ago, in the middle of the 20th century. The Palestinians did, actually, peacefully petition for UN aid... and the Israelis didn't have the weight of so much blood to back their convictions... (in addition to the necessity of attempting to maintain control of the settlements).
This is not the fringe. This is systematic and they number in the tens of thousands. Glad to see that you are taking a stand.
Who do you think gets recruited for this stuff? Oh yeah...average people off the street. You really need to read my posts about the situation. I have been one of the loudest voices decrying the treatment of Palestinians. That being said...events like this make it very difficult for me to offer any more of those ramblings. They have taken this to a level that I will not make myself complicit in by voicing an opinion consistent with their desired goals.
The gratuitous mention of the bedtime story leads me to believe this is just more anti-Palestinian propaganda put forth by Israel. The US is finally starting to realize how biased the media is towards Israel and now are taking stories like these with a grain of salt.
Disgusting... I hate it when I see something like this. I'd better not hear Israel send a missle to refuge camp
So if they approach 30 palestinians and out of those 30, one or two agree to go kill innocent israelis, you still hold all 30 responsible?
That's gratuitous? It shows the human side of an event that's hard for many Americans to comprehend. Take your grain of salt. I'll grieve for those children who die in this idiotic conflict.
i don't care if they were reading bedtime stories or lying to their parents or stealing candy from the candy store...two little kids were TARGETED.
The other 28 have done nothing to ensure that the plans of the 2 aren't carried out. In our jurisprudence that's called being an accessory.
What specifically would you like the other 28 to do? Should they call 911 or contact the district attorney? You have referenced "our jurisprudence" but we cannot assume that our world in the states correlates precisely to that of Israel/Palestine. I realize you are highly pissed and fed up hearing about what's going on over there but calling out an entire community/race of people is not reasonable.
This isn't about race. I was wondering how long it would take for somebody to boil it down to race...it took longer than I expected. This is about blown up colleges, blown up shopping malls and shooting rampages in a kibbutz...I could give a flying tinker's damn what color the jackasses are. If the Palestinian Authority is so dead set against terrorism then they can go to those who have been approached to get information. But they aren't going to do that, now are they? No...they're not. Why? Because they don't care to stop the attacks.
Well, sadly, this is a good point, IMHO. You never hear about the bedtime stories that were interrupted by the rumblings of an approaching tank or by the violent death by more organized (and thereby more just, according to some) sprays of ammo.
I don't agree with that either...but there is a HUGE difference between that and having some jackass bust down the door to the house, see the kids, point the gun at them and pulling the trigger. Why can't people understand that?
Eh? Logically speaking, the two arguments are not contingent. Believing that Israeli persecution of Palestinians is wrong is not contingent upon belief that Palestinian action is blameless, or even conscionable. One didn't need to endorse Malcom X to have sympathy with the Civil Rights movement. Refman, judging from your posts, you seem to have a great deal of emotional response, in general, to specific events. That's indicative of passion, which is good. However, I think it's also important to look at the big picture. I think it's an uphill argument to assert that the Palestinians have caused more harm/death/misery to the Israelis over the past 40 years, than the other way around.