I'm just wondering what should be done. It seems like the Israeli voting public will not accept the prospects of a viable Palestinian state, free of occupation troops and military incursions. They will certainly not accept a return to 1967 borders, the removal of all settlements, nor the right of return. That being the case, we can NEVER expect the Israeli govt to make political compromises with the Palestinians which achieves these goals. If this is the case, should we still consider the Israeli govt a legitimate party to the resolution of the problem? Should we still try to achieve a consensus, even when consensus is impossible? The reason we are in a deadlock is because democracy and political pressure will never allow the Israeli govt to give up all those things which are required to bring peace and stability back to the Holy Land. In cases like these, in the same way we freeze out the PLO for being powerless to stop the violence, shouldn't we freeze out the Israeli govt too for being powerless to effect the necessary changes? For years we have pressured the PLO to give ground, forcing them to accept the occupation and settlements, forcing them to accept a fraction of the territories they deserve under international law, forcing them to give up the right of return. But as we have seen, even if we get the PLO to accede to our pressure, other, more radical elements of the Palestinians will rise to resist, not to mention other Arab states and terrorist groups who perceive injustice in the way the situation is resolved.
This brings me to a sad reflection upon the state of world affairs. In the same way nations will never do what they don't want to do unless they are MADE TO, nations will always do what they want to do but are not supposed to do unless they are stopped. Why do countries commit actions obviously against international norms, defying world opinion, and flouting basic notions of morality? Because they CAN. Because nobody dares to do anything about it. There is no justice in this world. Only power. 1) Why does N Korea proliferate WMDs, blackmail the West, threaten its neighbors, and oppress its own people? Because it CAN. Because it has the world's 3rd strongest army. And of the only 2 countries stronger, one is its friend (China) and the other is a wuss (America). 2) Why does China proliferate, blackmail, threaten, and oppress? Because it CAN. Because it knows it is the world's biggest growing market with the world's fastest growing army. Nobody besides America dares to f*** with it, and that America is a wuss. 3) Why does Israel proliferate weapons to America's enemies, takes billions from the US each year, occupies its neighbors, and slaughters innocent people? Because it CAN. Because nobody cares enough about its enemies to take any action. Because America will never permit the international community to act against it, no matter how wrong or despicable its actions. 3) Why did India, Pakistan, France test their nukes? Because they CAN. Because eventually even the most adamant objectioners will need their political cooperation, will need access to their markets, will forget about the tests... 4) Why does America invade and occupy Iraq? Because WE CAN. Because even after lambasting the invasion, the Europeans still come crawling back to beg for reconstruction contracts. Because Iraq doesn't have a nuclear umbrella or even a friend that will lend one. Nations will do whatever they ******* want, so long as they CAN, so long as there is a profit to be made and there is nobody to stop them. This is a lazy, selfish, cynical world we live in. Right or wrong. No one is going to ever lift a finger for the Dalai Lama. No one is going to ever fight war against Kim Jong-Il. So as an American, all I have to say is, to hell with the rest of world. If we've got the power, we sure as hell deserve all the profit. They want to stop us from living the high life and exploiting and oppressing whoever we ******* want??? Just HOW are they going to stop us? What have they got to offer?
First of all.. 75% of military aid that goes to Israel is spent in the US. Second of all, Israel "occupies its neighbors" because they are constantly attacked by terrorists that want to destroy them. Damn, the broken record strikes again.
Lets not forget that there has never been a real "Palestinian" people and this concept of "statehood" is only forty or so years old. The "Palestinians" speak the same Arabic and are for all intensive purposes Arabs who seek to destroy Israel and replace it with yet another Arab dictatorship (as if we need another Syria/ Egypt/ Saudi Arabia/Jordan, etc.). Make no mistake, if the "Palestinians" really wanted peace, they had everything they claimed to want several years ago when Clinton tricked Ehud Barak into giving them everything they wanted at the negotiating table. Yassir Arafat told them to shove it and thus the present terror campaign began in earnest. So that is very telling about their intentions. Lastly, why is it that Israel, a country so slender in places you could walk from one side to the other in thirty minutes, always has to give up land for an "Palestinian" state? The only reason those people are misplaced is because the other Arab states refused to take in their fellow Arabs, unlike the Israelis, who took in every single Jew who was booted out of Arab countries with only the clothes on their backs.
bama, what exactly is an AMERICAN people. Is it the descendents from England, then what about our African Counterparts, our Hispanic ones, our Asian ones... WE all consider ourselves American, but it cant be defined in a word or even in a sentence. How do you justify that Palestine not be a country based on the fact that they dont have "CUSTOMS" or "TRADITIONS" of their own, and that they should be merged with any other country that has similar religion and traditions. In that case why not merge England into USA and give England to the Israeli's... Your argument is flawed...
Israel doesn't deserve the land they currently occupy. If you want to put the situation in the Middle East into a perspective that would be easy for modern Americans to understand, think about it like this: Would you like for the UN to decide that the Native Americans were cheated out of their land, and that after centuries of oppression and wandering, they deserved their original home back? Would you approve of all of the cities and land that had belonged to you for all of that time being turned over to its "original" owners? I doubt it. As a matter of fact, I will go so far as to say that you would fight back, through any means available to you. The Palestinians aren't just terrorists for the sake of being terrorists. They're fighting the theft of their land. If Israel wasn't so heavily funded by the US, and their Air Force wasn't supported by the US, then perhaps the Palestinians wouldn't constantly be at risk of disappearing from the region completely. US intervention and the forced establishment of an independent Palestinian state is the only way to solve the violence.
Great post Ender... That is the comparison I see it with at all times, and use in class, and in arguments/discussions iwth my peers.
Ender, Isn't that exactly what you are proposing for the Israelis? It seems like you are saying that some amount (no sure how much)of their land should be taken away by the US and given to the "original" owners, the Palestinians.
Pretty Much, yep, because as we know it, its the only way to calm down such a hostile region.. The Palestinian people are almost of the same population as the Israelis, They could go on and on man for man eye for eye until both of them end up dying. But we knew that the Indians could not do some of the extreme things the Palestinians have done to take back what in their minds is theirs, and that is why we don't speak of the American/Natives issue, we speak of the Palestinian/Israeli issue.
nobody knows the extent of terrorism in n korea because no news ever gets out of that country. but it is as totalitarian a state as you can possibly imagine, so i figure there should be damn near zero terrorism there. china has xinjiang muslim separatists who have consistently carried out terrorist bombings. and a host of elements who are potential terrorists: tibetans, falunggong, chinese democracy activists, chinese economic disenfranchised/underclass, HK democracy activists, taiwanese activists, filipino/japanese nationalists, etc. but none of them have been known to carry out attacks or even be organised into terrorist groups. basically it's not a big problem for the chinese either, at least not yet.
i've heard this argument too many times. first of all, even if 100% of military aid to israel is spent in the states, the fruits of american labor is still going to serve the wrong causes. instead of building hellfire missiles and rockets with which israel is killing innocent civilians, all those taxpayer dollars and american sweat and labor can be building better schools for our children, windmills for our environment, or even free broadband networks for you and me. guess what? all those dollars would be spent in the US too. second of all, israel occupies the golan heights even though syria can never challenge a nuclear-armed israel militarily. they military occupy the west bank when simply a wall (as they claim) can block out the terrorists. they build illegal settlements because.... forget it. my ranting on this bbs will never accomplish anything. it'll take an american president who's got the balls to stand up to the pro-israel lobbies. and if not, then a couple of arab nukes will do just as well.
Tell me why do the "Palestinians" deserve an independent state when: A. There never has been a state called Palestine and hopefully never will be. B. You know it will be the same tin-horn Arab dictatorship just like every other nation in the Middle East. Before the Israelis arrived there, it was a desert wasteland, sparsely populated. But now that the Jews have built a splendid little nation, the Arabs masquerading as the "Palestinians" want to steal it. They never will be satsified until the Jews are wiped out and they own all of the land. A state made up of the West Bank and Gaza, territories seized because of the intractable hostility of Arab neighbors, is not what they are aiming at. The only way peace will occur is for one of two things to happen: A. We give the Israelis an open hunting license with no bag limit. Let them kill as many terrorists as need be and let it be known- you raise arms against us and cowardly butcher our women and children- you will pay....dearly. B. The "Palestinians" are dispersed amongst the Arab states just like the Jews who were forcibly ejected from the Arab states with little or nothing of their possessions. Israel belongs to the Jews, both religiously and historically. The Arabs who moved there do not.
Bamma, there was a Palestinian nation, it wasn't called Palestine though. They are the Phillistines. There are the more radicals that want to destroy Israel, but that is not the call by all Palestinians or the goal of the Palestinian state. To lump all Palestinians into that category is ignorant. It's like saying all Americans want to colonize, torture, rape, and kill Iraqis. That's not true either but it holds the same amount of credence as your statement about Palestinians. The deal with Clinton and Barak would have been a horrible one for the Palestinians. It would have left them with the worst land, and no way to sustain a state. It's good for them that the deal was not agreed upon. The land was divided up by the UN in 1948. The same right that give Israel statehood then gave it to the Palestinians. There are ISraelis who would like to drive out all the Arabs and have that land for themselves. Yet once again we see moral relativism rear it's ugly head. It's ok for the ISraelis but not the Palestinians? The Palestinians do have their own distinct culture, and right to the land. Now that the facts have been cleared up. I'll move on to my opinions. A seperate sovereign state, lack of occupation, and increased peace will do wonders of Palestinian/Israeli peace. There will always be some who won't be satisfied and want to destroy each other. That is true of both Palestinians and ISraelis. These elements on both sides should be elimminated.
A. There were occupants of a land that lived in that area and governed themselves. They called themselves palstinians. To me that is enough to say that there were a Palestinian people who deserve a country. B. Same tin-horn Arab dictatorship, hey if that is how they wish to live, let them. You cant force a type of government on a group of people, maybe they dont want to have a demorcracy, what gives YOU the right to decide? And plus they could just as well be a democracy if they established it as such. Only way peace occurs is that you make a palestinian state and give the Palestinians part of the country, or else you atleast let them educate and work as equals in Israel. "The "Palestinians" are dispersed amongst the Arab states just like the Jews who were forcibly ejected from the Arab states with little or nothing of their possessions. Israel belongs to the Jews, both religiously and historically. The Arabs who moved there do not. " The Palestinians were FORCIBLY disperesd amongst Arab states against their will. That is worse than the trail of tears against the Natives. According to what religion does Israel belong to the Jews? what religion, Judaism? well what about the Christians, who dont believe in that? in that way religion has nothing to do with the geographic locations of a people. Historically, Israel was taken over by the Muslims, who gave all the people a chance to stay and continue to live, either continue to pay the tax on them, leave or get beheaded. Their choice. Many of them left many stayed. Now who is to blame them for leaving a country? The Arabs then established their own state there and later in a more civilized world this area was taken away from the arabs and given to the Jews, dont see anything fair in that. not only that it also left a people homeless that will go to extremes to get it back, and when you fight against fire, well sometimes its smart to just back off. So, If i use your logic, the Israelis could be dispereses amongst other European/Western Countries because thats what we do with the Palestinians.
Why is it Adeel that you favor carving more land out of Israel to create yet another Arab dictatorship when Arabs already control 85 percent of the land in the Middle East? Why can't the "Palestinians" go live among their own and leave the Israelis alone? The Jews have been a homogenous people long before Muhammed was even born and that land was theirs for thousands of years. It was the hope that they would once return to their ancestral territory that kept their people together, even through the Holocaust. This is not about creating a "Palestinian" state, but the slow destruction of Israel as it is carved up the enemies who surround it. The "Palestinians" are not descended from the Phillistines, who were largely wiped out. They have no claim to that land and need to leave. If they don't like living under martial law and dealing with Israeli troops trying to find the cowards among them who aren't man enough to challenge Israel's army, but kill innocents in the name of their perverse cause, get the hell out. Go to Jordan or Lebanon. Go to another Arab country. Leave the Jews alone.
The Palestinians are currently living among their own, and their own land. Yes the Palestinians are descended from the Phillistines. I don't know if you are relying on Miller's book about the history of the area, which was largely shown to be false or what other texts you are getting this from, but the information is not correct.
I never know where to begin with his interpretive history, so I thought I'd start with basics. If you get into concepts, he harangues you about the 'so called's with shifting qualifications for why they don't count but others do, and usually it comes down to the fact that they're a bunch of animals who all want to drive Israel into the sea.
