It's pretty sad that there are people who actually think this is a Holy War and think that the Taliban is a hero and martyr and are willing to die for him. The sad thing is they don't have a clue what they're fighting for. They just heard "Holy War" and "jihad" and are running to defend a dicator who is making his people suffer, and a mass murderer and terrorist. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011027/ts/attacks_holy_warriors_4.html <b>Pakistanis Leave for Holy War</b><i> By RIAZ KHAN, Associated Press Writer TEMERGARAH, Pakistan (AP) - In buses and trucks, pickups and vans, more than 5,000 people rolled out of a northeastern Pakistan village Saturday morning, bound for the Afghan frontier and vowing to fight a holy war against the United States. Thousands of Pakistani men, young and old, had massed in Temergarah on Friday night with assault rifles, machine guns, even rocket launchers. A few even carried axes and swords. Their mission, they said: to enter Afghanistan's Kunar province and help the country's ruling Taliban defend against any ground incursions by American troops. ``I am an old man. I consider myself lucky to go - and to face the death of a martyr,'' said Shah Wazir, 70, a retired Pakistani army officer. In his hands Saturday morning, he carried a French rifle from about 1920. Organizers said similar-sized groups were massing in other towns across North West Frontier Province, an enclave of ethnic Pashtuns with ties to - and deep feelings for - neighboring Afghanistan. Volunteers gathered in scores of groups of 20, sitting on the ground to be briefed on the ways of jihad - Islamic holy war - by military commanders wearing black turbans and full beards similar to the Taliban militia. One key rule: obedience to leaders. ``It is a difficult time for Islam and Muslims. We are in a test. Everybody should be ready to pass the test - and to sacrifice our lives,'' said Mohammad Khaled, one brigade leader. Would-be warriors embraced and chanted anti-American slogans. Hussain Khan, 19, a carpenter from the area, carried a Kalashnikov and stood with his friend. He said he was leaving behind a fiancee and joining a just cause. ``Whether I come back alive or I am dead, I'll be fortunate because I am fighting in the service of Islam,'' Khan said. The call for holy war came this week from Sufi Mohammad, an outspoken Muslim cleric who runs a madrassa, or religious school, in nearby Madyan. He exhorted ``true Muslims'' to mass and prepare to go to Afghanistan - to repel any U.S. ground incursions. How they will get there, and what they will do upon arrival, is uncertain. Their way station before entering Afghanistan is Bajur, a borderland tribal village where volunteers from different area will come together this weekend. In this region of Pakistan, Mohammad's organization, Tehrik Nifaz Shariat Mohammadi Malakand, or Movement for the Enforcement of Islamic Laws, has been embraced. And the cleric's message - that, despite its insistence to the contrary, the United States is waging war on Islam itself - hits home. ``This is a strange occasion of world history,'' Mohammad said Friday. ``For the first time, all the anti-Islamic forces are united against Islam.'' It was impossible to verify how many supporters were actually en route to join him. In recent weeks, many militants have claimed far more backing than rallies eventually produce. However, the numbers in Temergarah on Saturday morning - and the people jammed into trucks and on bus rooftops - suggested support was heavy. Mohammad's backers say the number to enter Afghanistan will reach 100,000. ``We are not worried about death,'' said Khaled, the brigade leader. ``If we die in jihad, it is something much more greater than to be alive. And we will be taken into paradise.'' The night before, men had massed by the thousands in Temergarah and other wind-whipped mountain villages in northeastern Pakistan's mountains. Out-of-towners, their conversation crackling with anticipation, roamed Temergarah's streets. Pickup trucks patrolled town with loudspeakers attached, calling people to assemble with a chant: ``Afghanistan will be a graveyard for Americans.'' Men huddled around radios, listening for news about the conflict; most tuned in to the BBC. People camped on porches, beneficiaries of local hospitality. Others slept on floors of public buildings. Mosques lodged as many as they could, and supplied food and blankets. ``I cannot tolerate the bombing and the cruelty of Americans. I must go,'' said Mamoor Shah, a medicine salesman who, at 18, already has a wife and child. ``Muslims cannot keep silent.'' For many young men, this is no mere rite of passage. It is religion - and it is blood, heritage and family. ``I'm going. My mother sent me to fight for our faith,'' said Farooq Shah, 21, a student from Buner, 50 miles away. When she told him to go, he had no Kalashnikov. So she went out, sold her jewelry and bought him one. Another young man, Zabih Ullah, listed the people to defend in his jihad, or holy war - Osama bin Laden, is Arab friends, and Afghanistan itself. And, Ullah said as he prepared for a war, no one will be permitted to get in the way. ``If anybody stops us, according to Islamic law we are allowed to fight jihad against him also,'' he said. ``We will not put our arms down until the end of the American aggression.'' </i>
I think we should have a couple of B-52's waiting for them about 10 miles inside Afghanistan to carpet bomb them into the afterlife. We need to stop screwing around with Red Cross buildings and start hitting these troops hard.
I say let them all gather together in Afghanistan. Then blow the hell outta all these idiots. I am a Muslim and I say if they want death give it to them.
Now this IS a group that I think deserves bombing. They've declared war on the US. If we can take them out without hurting too many non-participants, than I say shoot away.
If we don't attack them, then we might as well pack it up and come home, because the second they cross that border they become Taliban in a convoy, and if we won't kill the enemy then we shouldn't be there. Colin Powell doesn't want us to attack them... I would have voted for him for Prez before, but it is now clear that his balls have disappeared. He is personally responsible for prolonging this war. It should be pretty much over by now.
Our God has a bigger d*** than their God. (sorry, I thought a Carlin quote sounded good right about now)
If we dont kill em then what is the point of being there? Also these people must be really really stupid! I mean do they not know that one missile could take care of all of them?!?! But then again we are worried about the coalition and they know we might not do it.
Do you really believe that??? For God's sake, this aren't toy soldiers we are facing. We're up against men who repelled a 10-year Soviet invasion. We're up against men who have spent their whole lives either training to fight or actually fighting. Most importantly, we're up against an enemy who knows the land far better than we do and are so decentralized that it's hard enough to find them, let alone beat them. To say the battle should be done by now is either completely ignorant or completely insane. I've said that I think we should take out anyone who attempts to enter Afghanistan in order to assist Al-Qaida. I would be very interested in reading Powell's motivation for not attacking these persons (beyond the obvious PR/ keeping the peace with Pakistan bit). Anyone have a link?
subtomic: The Northern Alliance knows the caves there as well as the Taliban does, and they are telling us all. The Pakistani ISI knows where Osama and Omar are and they aren't telling us sh*t (maybe because they created and really run the Taliban?). We aren't using Bagram airbase because "It's too close to Pakistan", but we're basing out of Pakistan. BTW, our troops in Pakistan will eventually be attacked. We are dropping 10 bombs a day on frontline troops when we should be dropping a hundred. This is ridiculous. Powell is deliberately prolonging this war because he believes that if the Northern Alliance takes over then they will be at war with Pakistan, so he's trying to put together a coalition govt. (A coalition govt is fine, but totally useless while the Taliban's still there.) He's afraid that Musharaf will fall in that event, and that we'll then be at war with Pakistan. Well guess what? Every day that this war continues Musharaf comes a step closer to being overthrown, and if a fundamentalist govt comes to power there then we'll be at war with them for real - and they have nukes. As for whether we can do it quickly, we could. Kandahar should be ours by now, because we could have kept Kandahar airbase when the Rangers took it in that raid (yes, they actually took control of it and then left) and immediately begun bringing in the 82nd and 101st. We could have 30,000 troops there right now. Kabul will fall in a day as soon as we decide to actually bomb the 12,000 Taliban troops in between it and the Northern Alliance - which we aren't doing... As for the toughness of the Taliban troops... The Iraqis were battle hardened after 8 years of fighting the Iranians. They found out in 1991 that they weren't fighting Iranians anymore. The Taliban is battle hardened after fighting the Russians. They found out in that raid that they aren't fighting Russians anymore. With the possible exception of the British, we train the best infantry in the world, and we give them the best equipment and leadership in the world as well. Now, when I say that this should be over by now, I don't mean that the war should be completely over by now; that would be unrealistic. What I mean is that we could have taken every major town and city by now, and forced the remnants of the Taliban into the mountains. Every general I've heard and every military person I know has said that the heavy work should be over by now. Of course, the Taliban can launch minor attacks from the mountains for possibly years, but they should no longer be in control of the country at this point.
There's a big difference between a formal army with 8 years of experience and guerilla fighters with 20 years experience. But if you meant that we should have overthrown the Taliban at this point, I suppose that's possible. Although every report I've heard regarding this has expressed surprise at the resilience of the Taliban. While I have great faith in the strength of the US, I also know that our soldiers don't have the experience or knowledge of guerilla fighting that our enemies in Afghanistan do. That's why we're not rushing in too quickly. As far as Powell's holding things up, I can see the logic. We don't want to set ourselves up for a battle with Pakistan, especially if Bush seriously intends to fight terrorism beyond the current matter. The US has really screwed itself over by supporting the wrong parties in the past and I think we should be hesitant to support a coalition that consists of a very small majority of Afghanistan and is at odds with one of our few supporters in the Middle East.
subtomic: Our SF are very good at guerilla warfare, and when the situation calls for it they will be used in that manner. But the Taliban is massed right now and is not, for all intents and purposes, a guerilla force. We could blow away about 80% of their combat power before they made it to the hills, but we're not doing that. Powell fears that if we move now then the Northern Alliance will take control, and he is correct in that. The problem is that they are the only Afghan opposition force that there is that can take control for the forseeable future. They are the only group there with the military capability to move on the ground against the Taliban; there simply are no other options. They have also already agreed to a coalition govt headed by the King, so that is not even the real worry. The fear is that we are percieved as propping up another govt (the Northern Alliance) which is hostile to Pakistan, even though the true govt will be a coalition that will be restrained somewhat by us. But the perception by the religious leaders (and on the streets) in Pakistan will be that Musharaf has just let in the Americans next door, and that will spark Musharaf's ouster. The problem is that as I mentioned earlier, the longer the war goes on the more likely that Musharaf is ousted anyway. Our only real hope to prevent that is to end the war quickly and fight the PR battle after the coalition govt takes its place. Quite frankly, it is never a good idea to hold your punches for political reasons in a war. If you're going to do it, it is always best to get it over with quickly. As for the reports of the Taliban's resilience, what are they supposed to say? "Uhhh, we're not going to try to win the war yet, so please be patient"? How do we know how resilient they are if we are only attacking them at 10% of our capacity? Anyone would look resilient if you're more interested in only appearing to be attacking instead of really attacking them. If we lay it on full force - bomb at full capacity and use ground troops - it could be over very quickly. Our troops are superbly trained; the only real advantage the Taliban would have over them would be knowledge of the terrain, and with Northern Alliance troops as guides that advantage would be negated. Just ask yourself why those Pakistanis going to jihad haven't been taken out yet. One raid and we could take them all out, and that would be 5,000 or so fewer enemies we'll have to deal with later on the ground. If they aren't taken out now, they'll probably kill a few Americans later on, and I frankly don't want to see a single American die to spare those worthless idiots' sensibilities. This is political nonsense, and injecting politics into the battlefield is never a smart thing to do. I am not even impressed with the political rationale. Pakistan is supporting the Taliban, and all this talk about them being allies is nonsense. At least 30% of the Taliban actually are Pakistanis; the Northern Alliance regard the Taliban (rightly) as foreign invaders because they are Pakistanis, Saudis, Egyptians, Jordanians, Yemenis, etc, but a large chunk is Pakistani. Musharaf may personally want to appease us right now - he is, after all, on very shaky ground - but his populace is not in the mood for appeasement. And frankly, if he wants us to end the war quickly, he could help us immensely by telling us where Osama and Mullah Omar are. ISI knows. I do not want to see us go to war with Pakistan, but if Musharaf falls (and I personally see no realistic way he maintains power unless we end it quickly) then a fundamentalist state will come to power there, and we will have no choice. Musharaf is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, and sad to say we might be too. Therefore we might as well get it over with in Afghanistan and hope that Musharaf can hold on, because if this drags on into spring I guarantee you that Musharaf will be replaced by a mullah.
I think we should just have a giant attack against all of their troops and just wipe them out. Than the northern alliance will take over.
Here is a good article that sums up what we are up against. Anything but easy in my opinion. In fact, we may not win this war without suffering significant casualties. Or, we may not win this war...at all. Surf
Oh we'll win the war. The United States isn't alone. It's the world vs Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden, and a few renegade nuts. Japan just announced that they are also sending over some help. I like what the U.S. military said, they're not worried about this renegades calling for a Holy War. They're sure they'll be deserting when they find out they're facing certain death. Make no mistake. This isn't the U.S. vs the Taliban. This is the U.S., Australia, Canada, England, Japan, China, and countless other countries against the Taliban. They crave death? Well they'll get their wish! <b>There's a big difference between a formal army with 8 years of experience and guerilla fighters with 20 years experience.</b> Didn't people say the same thing about Iraq? Afghanistan soldiers may be tougher then Iraqi soldiers, but our technology is a billion times better.
