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outside the wire

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Jan 25, 2007.

  1. basso

    basso Member
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    http://www.outsidethewire.com/

    "we do it, so the rest of america don't have to see it."
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    [rquoter] This is the Iraq War you won't see on the evening news.

    Former Marine and television news producer JD Johannes traveled to Iraq with
    his old Marine Corps unit to produce syndicated TV news reports for local
    stations.

    From those reports comes a view of the war that only the grunts who operate
    outside the wire experience.

    From a dust-up with Al Qaida outside Abu Ghriab, to a night raid on the home
    of an insurgent leader, you will see what the Marines saw and hear the story
    in their own words of why they joined, volunteered for the deployment, why
    they fight and what it is like to go outside the wire and into combat. [/rquoter]
     
  2. FranchiseBlade

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    I can't watch the program from here at work, but I am sure it is interesting. Just talking with my nephew who was a Marine and served one tour in IRaq already with another coming up, I heard plenty of interesting, scary and sad stories.

    The troops really do live through unimaginable stuff, and put it all out there.
     
  3. basso

    basso Member
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    looks like they're making some progress

    [rquoter]Turnaround in Baghdad

    BY NIBRAS KAZIMI
    January 25, 2007

    There has been a flurry of press reports recently about insurgents battling American and Iraqi security forces on Haifa Street in Baghdad, and around the rural town of Buhruz in Diyala Province. These same insurgents also claimed to have shot down a Black Hawk helicopter near Buhruz. At the same time, the Americans and Iraqis are declaring a major victory as evidenced by the increased number of dead or captured militants, and the uncovering of massive weapons caches. So, what is going on?

    What needs to be understood is the central role that Al Qaeda — or more accurately its successor organization, a group called the Islamic State of Iraq — is playing on these fronts and the diminishing role of all the other insurgent groups.

    The wider Sunni insurgency — the groups beyond Al Qaeda — is being slowly, and surely, defeated. The average insurgent today feels demoralized, disillusioned, and hunted. Those who have not been captured yet are opting for a quieter life outside of Iraq. Al Qaeda continues to grow for the time being as it cannibalizes the other insurgent groups and absorbs their most radical and hardcore fringes into its fold. The Baathists, who had been critical in spurring the initial insurgency, are becoming less and less relevant, and are drifting without a clear purpose following the hanging of their idol, Saddam Hussein. Rounding out this changing landscape is that Al Qaeda itself is getting a serious beating as the Americans improve in intelligence gathering and partner with more reliable Iraqi forces.

    In other words, battling the insurgency now essentially means battling Al Qaeda. This is a major accomplishment.

    Last October, my sources began telling me about rumblings among the insurgent strategists suggesting that their murderous endeavor was about to run out of steam. This sense of fatigue began registering among mid-level insurgent commanders in late December, and it has devolved to the rank and file since then. The insurgents have begun to feel that the tide has turned against them.

    In many ways, the timing of this turnaround was inadvertent, coming at the height of political and bureaucratic mismanagement in Washington and Baghdad. A number of factors contributed to this turnaround, but most important was sustained, stay-the-course counterinsurgency pressure. At the end of the day, more insurgents were ending up dead or behind bars, which generated among them a sense of despair and a feeling that the insurgency was a dead end.

    The Washington-initiated "surge" will speed-up the ongoing process of defeating the insurgency. But one should not consider the surge responsible for the turnaround. The lesson to be learned is to keep killing the killers until they realize their fate.

    General David Petraeus, whom President Bush has tasked to quell the insurgency, spent the last year and a half updating the U.S. Army and Marine Corps's field manual for counterinsurgency. There's plenty of fancy theory there, as well as case studies from Iraq. I don't know how much of the new manual is informed by General Petraeus' two notable failures in Iraq: building a brittle edifice of government in Mosul that collapsed at the first challenging puff, and the inadequate training and equipping of the Iraqi army due to corruption and mismanagement.

    General Petraeus walked away from those failures unscathed and hence unaccountable. He re-enters the picture with major expectations. Most commentators, especially those who begrudge attributing any success to Mr. Bush, will lionize the general as he takes credit for this turnaround and speeds it up. Let's hope that he has enough sense to allow what works to keep working and to improve on it, rather than trying to put his own stamp on things and test out the theories he's developed.

    The best way to use the extra troops would be to protect the Sunni neighborhoods of Baghdad from Shiite death squads. This will give an added incentive for Sunnis to turn against the militants operating in their midst. For most Sunnis, the insurgency has come to be about communal survival, rather than communal revival. They no longer harbor fantasies of recapturing power. They are on the run and are losing the turf war with the Shiites for Baghdad.

    Sunni sectarian attacks, usually conducted by jihadists, finally provoked the Shiites to turn to their most brazen militias — the ones who would not heed Ayatollah Sistani's call for pacifism — to conduct painful reprisals against Sunnis, usually while wearing official military fatigues and carrying government issued weapons. The Sunnis came to realize that they were no longer facing ragtag fighters, but rather they were confronting a state with resources and with a monopoly on lethal force. The Sunnis realized that by harboring insurgents they were inviting retaliation that they could do little to defend against.

    Sadly, it took many thousands of young Sunnis getting abducted by death squads for the Sunnis to understand that in a full-fledged civil war, they would likely lose badly and be evicted from Baghdad. I believe that the Sunnis and insurgents are now war weary, and that this is a turnaround point in the campaign to stabilize Iraq.

    Still, major bombings will continue for many years, for Al Qaeda will remain oblivious to all evidence of the insurgency's eventual defeat. The Baathists, and jihadist groups like Ansar al-Sunna, the Islamic Army of Iraq, and the 1920 Revolution Brigades, may be collapsing due to aimlessness and despair, but Al Qaeda still enjoys the clarity of zealotry and fantasy. Right now, they are arm-twisting other jihadist groups to submit to them and are also taking credit for the large-scale fighting that continues in Iraq.

    Al Qaeda will continue the fight long after the Iraqi battlefield becomes inhospitable to their cause, and they will only realize the futility of their endeavor after they are defeated on the wider Middle East battlefield and elsewhere in the world.

    As the wider insurgency recedes, the Iraqi state will gain some breathing space to implement the rule of law and dissolve the death squads. A society that sets about rebuilding itself can endure the type of attacks mounted by Al Qaeda, although they are painful.

    Counterinsurgency strategists will argue about the precise moment when this turnabout occurred and will try to replicate the victory elsewhere. Pundits will argue about who or what policy was responsible for it, a matter eventually to be settled by historians. Victory has a way of making everyone associated with it golden, and many will claim right of place. Defeat has a way of turning everyone associated with it to ash, and many will disclaim responsibility for it.

    Let me state the lesson of this turnabout clearly lest it be obscured amidst the euphoria: Never mind who takes credit, kill or capture more of the killers to ensure victory.[/rquoter]
     
  4. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    They could end this whole thing right now if the US would just kill Sadr . What are they waiting for?
     
  5. Colt45

    Colt45 Member
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  6. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Normal english words cannot express how f-cking idiotic this reasoning is.

    Really, I'm dumbfounded. I just can't say anything more.

    Anybody who plagiarized this article would have the joke be on them, even if they were successful.
     
  7. basso

    basso Member
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    fascinating. presented with images of american soldiers' heroism, and evidence that that herosim may be having a positive effect, the reaction is to attempt to discredit the source and its reasoning. how patriotic.

    [rquoter] New Trend On The Rise: The Patriotic Terrorist

    Whenever I visit this lovely blog, I usually run into someone - a "leftist," if you will - who finds pleasure in things that make our country or the President look bad. I suppose I could say these angry types are no better than cheerleaders for terrorism. After all, both entities - the left and terrorists - seem to share the same desire: to put the US, humiliatingly, in its place.

    But I would be wrong to say such things. Very wrong. Of course, "dissent is patriotic," and the left is only critical of America because it simply loves our country much more than I do.

    That's why calling them terrorists would be intolerant and pretty shameful.

    But what about "patriotic terrorists?"

    That's kinda neat.

    What is a patriotic terrorist?

    It is an American who claims to love his or her country while enjoying the enemy's success against said country. It is a person who gets deeply offended if you question their patriotism, while also appearing to share the same ideals of the more spirited folk who like to blow up innocent people.

    Patriotic terrorists love America with so much intensity that it appears to the untrained eye that they hate it. But it's actually the most powerful form of "tough love" known to man, woman and Rosie O'Donnell. Patriotic terrorists love America so much that they realize it needs an intervention - and real terror is the only way to enable that intervention. In fact, to keep a mammoth, arrogant superpower like America in check, terrorism is the only thing we've got. Noam Chomsky knew this from the start, making him a patriotic terrorist of the highest order.

    This is why he gets the chicks.

    Hey, I bet you've probably wondered why Al Qaeda hasn't struck in the US since 9/11. They don't have to. It has its own offshoot franchise here at work already. Patriotic Terrorists.

    Think about how much both groups have in common!

    -Both patriotic terrorists and Al Qaeda want the US to abandon Iraq, for that reveals Bush and America to be monstrous, laughable failures. It does not matter to either group that the withdrawal from Iraq will make post-Vietnam look like an afternoon at Ikea shopping for a Hoggbo innerspring mattress.

    -For patriotic terrorists and real terrorists, car bombs going off is music to their ears. It proves that you can't offer democracy to troubled countries, as long as you've got terrorists standing in your way. And that's great news for everyone who believes in checks and balances between the haves and the have nots! (Note: "haves" means the US. "Have nots" means those who hate the US)

    -Patriotic terrorists and the more committed terrorists both believe that infractions at Guantanamo Bay are far worse than anything a genocidal dictator could muster, and such horrors possess far more PR potential in denigrating the US than anything involving Ed Begley Jr.

    -Both patriotic terrorists and Al Qaeda terrorists believe the US desires to control the Middle East, empower evil Israel and expand it's power base at the expense of innocent Arab lives. But both groups also realize that the US is too stupid to achieve these goals - and that makes being a patriotic terrorist loads of fun!

    Are you a patriotic terrorist?

    If you are intensely critical of the US, while tolerating homicidal enemies who condemn everything you previously claimed you are for - human rights, voting rights, gay rights, women's rights, p*rn - then you're a patriotic terrorist.

    If you talk about tolerance constantly - and hilariously tolerate genocide and suicide bombers because those actions undermine your more intimate opposition, the American right - then you're a patriotic terrorist.

    The only difference between a patriotic terrorist and a real one? Real terrorists are simply patriotic terrorists who've taken the extra step - choosing to actually die for their beliefs - rather than simply talking about them at Spago. If Tim Robbins, Sean Penn, Michael Moore, and their ilk had real cojones, they'd all be wearing cute black vests - but stuffed with more than dog-eared copies of Deterring Democracy.[/rquoter]

    i'm pretty sure i've made similar points here in the past- perhaps it's just a sentimental echo
     
  8. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Um, no dumbass, we're just not stupid enough to believe that creating more hardlined anti-american terrorists is a good thing, which the moronic article you posted has the lack of shame or comprehension to argue. So yeah, I have the nerve to attempt to discredit "reasoning" - especially when that reasoning is so obviously wrong. You apparently are at least that stupid or delusional, along with I guess about 25% or so of the populace to believe this, and

    Talk about people who are in favor of terrorists: it's YOU. You just endorsed creating more terrorists explicitly. Then you post the same old "hate america" bullsh-t because you can't address the substance. News flash: it's not 2002, that doesn't work anymore. That's why nobody supports the failure in chief.
     
    #8 SamFisher, Jan 26, 2007
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2007
  9. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    Hey basso I asked an honest question in this thread. Why not kill Sadr right now? He's got American blood on his hands, he's a known terrorist. We know where he is, why haven't we taken him out? Surely his death will cause a major part of the insurgency to stop.
     
  10. FranchiseBlade

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    basso, I have disagreed with a lot of your ideas regarding the war, and you have been quick to accuse people of siding with the terrorists, which is totally off base.

    This is one of the most ignorant things I have seen posted in this forum, and if you agree with this kind of writing, then I have to question your overall judgement and ability to discern quality from amatuer propoganda hack writing.

    This is absolutely horrible, and once again he makes accusations, and assumptions without any evidence whatsoever to back it up.

    The author is apparently so dumb that he mistakes legitimate criticism with a desire to see failure and ill come to the subject of that criticism. Of course none of us are in favor of tolerating the abuses he claims we are. Again his failure and inability to understand something so basic is mind boggling.

    He also seems to have a real lack of understanding of women's rights in Iraq post Saddam compared to Saddam's reign.

    In general he seems to not really be to knowlegable of matters in Iraq, nor the state of mind of those who oppose the war.

    I am puzzeled that you think something like this is worthy to read, much less post.
     
  11. basso

    basso Member
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    dunno- i've been in favor of taking him out for 3 years. if i had to speculate i'd guess it's politically difficult- that's what stopped us in 2003.
     
  12. FranchiseBlade

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    Look at the crap basso posted in this thread. He accuses Americans of supporting the same ideals as terrorists and Saddam Hussein, even though the author of the article is painfully unaware of conditions under Saddam himself.

    He posts this with an apparent straight face, and you think he is interested in legitimate discussion?

    I have asked him legitimate questions time and time again, and he never answers any of them. After this much time I have to beleive it is because he has no answers.

    I have asked about the internal Al-Qaeda memo stating the Al-Qaeda wants the U.S. forces to continue to occupy Iraq for a long period of time.

    I asked what events and current status in Iraq makes him believe the U.S. is winning the war there. Sam Fisher asked for the same thing, and basso, didn't or can't answer.

    basso, isn't interested in legitimate discussion or debate. That much has been shown.
     
  13. underoverup

    underoverup Member

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    this as well as the fact we never know for sure when he is posting his own thoughts or is plagiarizing.
     
  14. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    I thought part of the new way forward was to eliminate the "politics" of who we went after.

    IMO we can't take him out; because he's Maliki's strongman and all hell would break loose if we tried to arrest him or kill him. So we're not really interested in doing what is needed to win this war now are we?
     
  15. basso

    basso Member
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    that's a pretty narrow example. i agree he needs to go, and i imagine bush and us commanders do as well, but perhaps our approach is more nuanced than you give the admin credit for. and in any case, that he's not gone yet does not mean he's not going.
     
  16. thegary

    thegary Member

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    And through the wire I hear your voice
    And through the wire I touch the power
    And through the wire I see your face
    It's through the wire

    Friday night, you're staying at home I want you
    I'm tickling and clicking a metronome I want you
    Prowling the waterhole-I wait for the kill I want you
    Pressure's building-overspill I want you

    And through the wire You are secure
    And through the wire We can talk
    And through the wire We can walk
    It's through the wire

    Watchmaker steadies his delicate hand I want you
    For barbeque parties on blood red sands I want you
    Caught in the struggle tight on the rod I want you
    Bring out the devil to bring out the god I want you

    And through the wire I hear your voice
    And through the wire I touch the power
    And through the wire I see your face
    It's through the wire

    Driving 'round the city rings
    Staring at the shape of things
    I talk in pictures not in words
    Overloaded with everything we said
    be careful where you tread
    Watch the wire

    And through the wire You are secure
    And through the wire We can talk
    And through the wire We can walk
    And through the wire We're clinging like leeches
    And through the wire We push out tailormade speeches
    And through the wire We get so strange across the border
    We get so strange across the border
     
  17. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Ugh.

    This is the failing of the Right and the reason why so many "patriots" can't stand this drivel... the idea that Bush and Country are the same thing... even when trying to slam their "more intimate opposition, the American left," they can't help but let their true autocratic cult-of-personality selves shine through.

    Really, could this be more pathetic... it even includes the obligatory wing-nut anti-gay message in a sideswipe at Rosie and an anti-intellectual message through the Chomsky reference. (I guess the Rosie mention could also be a shout out to misogyny, depending on if your audience fears gays or independent women more.)

    I guess I'm a terrorist.:rolleyes: I do think it is far worse... mainly because we've spent a whole damn century or more being the counterweight in world opinion to the "genocidal dictator" and actively working against this kind of stuff. I do think it is worse when the country that led the Nuremberg Trials and shaped international opinion against these kinds of actions actively and openly engages in torturing people and depriving them of habeus corpus..

    I also take issue with the definition of patriotic terrorist... to me, it would be someone who allows the national security and protection of their country to be used for the domestic political advantage of their party, regardless of consequences.

    Really basso, this whole article is pathetic and if you really think this, you are a small, small man. Why so scared?

    Let it die.
     
  18. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    basso, I can't believe that you posted this ****. A royal "**** you," right back at you. Why don't you move to a country with a fascist government? One that frowns upon dissent? One that doesn't tolerate it? One that doesn't have a Bill of Rights? One that espouses, "My Leader, right or wrong... all praise the Leader!" That's what you're advocating.

    What a sickening post by someone I thought had a modicum of intelligence. Clearly, I was fooling myself.



    D&D. Civil? Apparently not.
     
  19. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    I am curious, does the neocons here love the north korea system of government?
     
  20. Colt45

    Colt45 Member
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    Yet, as "evidence" that Iraq is the democratic paradise you claim it is, you gleefully post the rantings of a hardcore Al Sadr apologist. It sure doesn't sound like taking him out is on your boy's "to do" list.

    Of course, you, like Kazimi, really don't seem to care about the troops beyond using them as a weapon to attack "liberals" (or, as the rest of us refer to them, the vast majority of Americans). Why else do you demand that they remain, indefinitely, in harm's way?
     

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