One more SA thread....its been a long time so Im allowed to.

Fantastic Post. I agree entirely. If the Rockets made a greater effort to get Shandon involved, I am confident he would produce. That would add a 5th scorer to the starting lineup. He just needs a few plays run for him.

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I definitely still think Cat has the quickest first step in the league, but can't back that up with factual evidence so I'll stop here. It's debatable. However, as one of the main people on this board who would like Shandon either gone or resigned to a contract like this one (very small), I definitely need to respond.

Say what you want in devaluing SA's game precursoring his pending loss.

To clear this up-- I've been saying this about Shandon all season long... so no, I'm not trying to devalue him.

But facts of the matter are, he isnt involved in the offense. He isnt looked for, he has no plays made for him.

And that's mostly due to Shandon himself. He has got to look for opportunities-- he is not a halfcourt player who can set up on the wing like a Latrell Sprewell, Cuttino Mobley, etc. He has to move without the ball, attack the basket, and get out in transition to be effective. Those are mostly things that he controls, not Rudy, Steve, or anyone else. When Shandon attacked the basket and cut, he was at his absolute best and that is the person we hoped for when we signed. But Rudy is not the one calling plays for him to do that. The majority of the time Shandon simply goes into the corner and slides around the perimeter on offense, content to take that three that he usually misses as his only shots of the game. Shandon can be an effective player if he would keep that attack mindset all the time, but the fact is the majority of the time he doesn't, and we don't need to resign him to a big deal for having a good offensive showing in maybe a fourth of the games. You can't expect Steve to give the ball to Shandon on the post or on an isolation often because, frankly, he isn't good in those areas. Shandon has to play to his strengths-- attacking the rim, slashing, moving without the ball, etc., and it is he who determines how good in a game he does in those areas, not Rudy.

And he hustles, keeps his mouth shut, plays Defense (which no other Rocket player-NONE- can claim they do even an admirable job of it oftenly) and plays team ball.

I haven't seen any more hustle out of him than any other players... this season he's given a solid effort defensively, but as far as diving on the floor for loose balls, running the floor, etc. I don't see any more of that from him than I do from Steve and Cuttino. And as for defense-- if you would watch closely, you are simply trying to hold on to Shandon's rep as a great defender from previous seasons. The fact remains that this year he was pretty average, maybe slightly above average. He didn't look very active or interested on defense at times, and was not that great of an on the ball defender. And no, not just against bigger SF's-- also against people his size. By the end of the season, Cuttino's defense was pretty comparable to Shandon's, and Steve's is rapidly improving.

Shandon's value to this team by some members of this board is very overrated... think about one thing guys. Let's say Shandon plays a typical offensive game (maybe about 5 points, just hanging around the perimeter like he did too much) and a fairly strong defensive night. On that same night, let's say Walt has a fairly strong shooting and offensive performance, and a typical defensive game (below average on the ball D). During this season, the Rockets imho were a better team with a pretty good Walt shooting performance at SF than they were with Shandon playing a pretty good defensive game at SF. That should say a lot.

I really don't see how replacing Shandon with another SF who can play transition basketball, defense, and a good shooter if possible (Battier or Jefferson from the draft, possibly Patterson via free agency) will make this team worse. I doubt the Rockets want to bring Shandon back for 4-5 M per season, but I'm pretty sure they don't want Walt as their starting SF either. I'm sure the Rockets have plans for a pretty solid SF who can fill his role well, and if it's a player similar to those mentioned above (logic tells you it could be) I don't see how we're worse off. In fact, we're probably better.

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SA isn't involved, as you say, in the offense so I doubt he will hurt them there. SA can't rebound from the 3 spot, even though he's a good rebounding guard. Defensively he's good man to man, but that only helps a little since not many of the rocks are good man to man defenders. The rockets would benefit more from a good man to man defender that also can help out the young guards from the 3rd guard/SF position.

If he's willing to back up Mobley, I'm fine with him. I would be for him being the starting two if Mobley wasn't a rocket.

I don't like him as a SF or a good third guard unless he's playin the 2. He uses his size to beat his man as a SG, but that doesn't work when being guarded by a SF. He has a decent shoot, but not great. He isn't a good enough ballhandler to create his own shoot, and Francis and Mobley aren't the best at getting everyone involved, yet.


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Cuttino may have the quickest first step in the league, but he rarely uses it. Too often he settles for the outside fallaway jumper.

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[This message has been edited by ZRB (edited April 22, 2001).]

 

Answer me this Dreamshake...what is my motivation to lie to this board about seeing a system that is geared for slashing guards to thrive? What is my motivation for lying and saying Shandon can't dribble? What is my motivation for lying and saying Shandon is a classic no midrange player?

What is my motivation?

Then answer me this: What is your motivation for never saying one good word about Rudy or Mobley? Do you still actually believe Rudy and Mobley don't like Shandon and are freezing him out? Cause, you stated worries about that before....conspiracies.

Don't call me biased!

What is up with tearing down a coach, a point guard, and a player you hate just to build up Shandon? I criticized Shandon based on my analysis of Shandon alone, and after 1 1/2 years of patience and watching, looking, tracking. We have a weak and inexperienced fastbreak. Other than that, the production we see from SA is all we can count on until he improves his shooting, dribbling, and passing....you know, basketball fundamentals.

He is has great hustle and endurance and leaping ability, but sorry Dreamshake, he lacks basketball fundamentals to ever be a consistent scorer unless your superstars are so great the defense has to leave him open. The Shandon offense is hype.

If you can't see that Mobley has a tremendous first step, and even acknowlegde Rudy's statements that he is the best finisher on the team, you are just showing tremendous bias. I've never questioned Shandon nearly the way you constantly bash Rudy and Mobley. Obviously, now that the 2 years are up and I'm taken the shrewd GM approach to questioning Shandon offensive ability and monetary value, you jump in to protect your favorite player.

I've cheered Shandon's hustle, praised his defense and his strength on fastbreaks...when have you ever said one good thing about Mobley. And you have the audacity to single me out as making the antithesis statements as you. You have an agenda (a predicition) concerning Shandon. I don't! I'm a Rocket fan, and I love to scout offenses. You have a preconceived notion of what a team should do, and always second guess the coach (your predictions).

You are the biased one---plain and simple.

And what exactly did you predict this year. You said if Shandon doesn't get involved; he will leave. But, you also said we will suck, and Mobley is no good. Great predictions through some mighty thick glasses.

The obvious disgust you have for Rudy and Mobley is blinding your thick glasses to see this team is evolving...either that, or you are not watching any games.

 

Heypartner- what about your obvious bias in favor of Rudy and Mobley?

All I know is that towards the end of 99-00, the Rockets were making an effort to involve Shandon, and he delivered. Towards the end of this season, the Rockets made a greater effort to involve Shandon, and he once again delivered. The Rockets finished the season 3-0 with Shandon averaging around 16 ppg. Why didn't they try to involve him earlier in the season? Oh, I get it. They didn't make the effort because Rudy is a genius and knows that the only player that should be shooting is Cuttino Mobley.

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also dream-babe

I am not de-valuing Shandon...Fegan is overvaluing him.

I'll put you down as someone falling for Fegan's hype and paying Shandon more than anyone else on this board. $5m - 6m wouldn't you?! Spending top dollar on players without shooting, passing, and dribbling skills to match it is just bad business.

 

First off, you should know when reading my posts these are opinions, not facts.

Nice try. There is a difference between doing what you want and being content. I said he was too content in that role, and if he wasn't you would see a lot more of him cutting toward the basket.

So you disagree with one point, which by the way is a point in which I'm not even near the only person who thinks that, and you discount the rest of what I say because of that? How unbiased and mature that is...

I figured you and Heypee would respond on the darkside of this thread, but at least Heypee can give me game analysis, and not just...well to be honest with you Cat, that crappy crap crap.

Do me a favor please... tell me why it's crappy crap crap. If that's what you think of my posts, that's fine, I can accept that. I know not everyone will agree with my thoughts. But don't say that when you didn't even read my entire post... Why don't you give me some analysis on my points? Please tell me, besides that one thing you posted in your response, why you feel in our system the way things run that I'm wrong with what I said. You may indeed be right, but I actually would like to hear your thoughts on the situations I brought up and not just try and dismiss them as crap because they differ with your opinion.

And by the way, you might see some of that from Collier after he plays more than a month's worth of healthy basketball at about 10 minutes per game. I don't think anyone, not even someone as biased as you are, can make a logical judgment on him after that small amount of games.

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[This message has been edited by The Cat (edited April 22, 2001).]

 

Sorry Dreamshake, you're wrong. Shandon has just as many plays for him as any other player on this team. Are these plays called for him alot? No, because he's not a reliable scoring option. You're better off going to your best offensive players, and that's what Rudy does. He's geared his offense towards his best players, which our the guards.

I love Shandon, and I think some of the criticism around here is unjustified, but some of his faults are quite evident. Explain to me how Shandon "Keeping his mouth shut" helps the team? Don't try and tell me he is providing some example for the younger players or is some kind of good lockeroom presence. If Shandon could dribble more effectivley, it would help the Rocket's overall break.

Also, why exaggerate another player's negatives just to better your argument?

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ZRB--shall I pull some archives about my obvious bias for Shandon last year, too.

Come on...what I do is not bias compared to you and Dreamshake. I describe Rudy's offense to the best of my ability and many years watching this game at all levels. You just bash Rudy. I hate ISOs, but I understand it, and can see some advantages. I'm on record saying that over and over, that I want less ISOs. I am convinced Rudy wants less ISO.

I am not biased. To be fair to me...I am patient.

You calling me biased is not fair at all to the effort I've made to be as objective a describer of games and plays as any media person you will find who covers the Rockets. I am loud. But, when I speak about the system and player's ability, I've watched with patience and I have done my analysis.

Tearing that down calling me biased just shows your own agenda.

quit polarizing me to justify your dime a dozen back seat coaching, like what you do is the same as me, only a different opinion. yeah right!

Oh...and I love the way you always back any Rudy bashing, so you'll get a positive acknowledgement back.

 

You know, it is possible for a player to produce without the coach calling plays for him on the sideline. Shandon doesn't produce all year, and that is Rudy's fault, and suddenly he has a few decent games towards the end, and it is because Rudy changed his gameplan to involve Shandon more? Could it maybe be the Shandon had a few good games on his own, and contributed in his own role?

What exactly did Rudy change in these last 3 games that involved Shandon more? Or did he just shoot better and play more actively for 3 games?

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[This message has been edited by RunninRaven (edited April 22, 2001).]

 

Shandon's not the kind of player who can create on his own. He has to be put in an offensive system that plays to his strengths, and can create easy shots for him. Could Rudy have utilized Shandon better? Possibly, but it wouldn't have had the major effect some people are talking about.

You want to get your best offensive players in the flow of the game. The Rocket's best offensive players are Mo, Mobley, and Francis. You should run 75 percent of your offense through those 3 players. Shandon's points should just come off moving without the ball, and fast break oppertunities. Next year, our fastbreak will be greatly improved, which would make Shandon more effective. I think people put too much importance on what Shandon brings to this team offensively.



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What is this? Your whole post is Darkside. Show me just one positive thing you said in your post.

You start a positive...you'll get a different response.

You start a negative thread...which that opening post was,,, fine, but then don't back off with "I figured I'd get this reponse" when we eagerly lap at your luctations.

 

You girls know each other?

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