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Once Considered Unthinkable, U.S. Sales Tax Gets Fresh Look

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by OddsOn, May 28, 2009.

  1. OddsOn

    OddsOn Contributing Member

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    Or maybe they can just quit spending so much money and heaven forbid cut back their budget like the rest of the country? Since when is adding more tax ever a good idea? So are we going to do away with the income tax and replace it with the VAT? Or is this on top of all the other taxes we are already paying? :confused:

    Once Considered Unthinkable, U.S. Sales Tax Gets Fresh Look

    Once Considered Unthinkable, U.S. Sales Tax Gets Fresh Look
    Levy Viewed as Way to Reduce Deficits, Fund Health Reform

    By Lori Montgomery
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Wednesday, May 27, 2009

    With budget deficits soaring and President Obama pushing a trillion-dollar-plus expansion of health coverage, some Washington policymakers are taking a fresh look at a money-making idea long considered politically taboo: a national sales tax.

    Common around the world, including in Europe, such a tax -- called a value-added tax, or VAT -- has not been seriously considered in the United States. But advocates say few other options can generate the kind of money the nation will need to avert fiscal calamity.

    At a White House conference earlier this year on the government's budget problems, a roomful of tax experts pleaded with Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner to consider a VAT. A recent flurry of books and papers on the subject is attracting genuine, if furtive, interest in Congress. And last month, after wrestling with the White House over the massive deficits projected under Obama's policies, the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee declared that a VAT should be part of the debate.

    "There is a growing awareness of the need for fundamental tax reform," Sen. Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) said in an interview. "I think a VAT and a high-end income tax have got to be on the table."

    A VAT is a tax on the transfer of goods and services that ultimately is borne by the consumer. Highly visible, it would increase the cost of just about everything, from a carton of eggs to a visit with a lawyer. It is also hugely regressive, falling heavily on the poor. But VAT advocates say those negatives could be offset by using the proceeds to pay for health care for every American -- a tangible benefit that would be highly valuable to low-income families.

    Liberals dispute that notion. "You could pay for it regressively and have people at the bottom come out better off -- maybe. Or you could pay for it progressively and they'd come out a lot better off," said Bob McIntyre, director of the nonprofit Citizens for Tax Justice, which has a health financing plan that targets corporations and the rich.

    A White House official said a VAT is "unlikely to be in the mix" as a means to pay for health-care reform. "While we do not want to rule any credible idea in or out as we discuss the way forward with Congress, the VAT tax, in particular, is popular with academics but highly controversial with policymakers," said Kenneth Baer, a spokesman for White House Budget Director Peter Orszag.

    Still, Orszag has hired a prominent VAT advocate to advise him on health care: Ezekiel Emanuel, brother of White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel and author of the 2008 book "Health Care, Guaranteed." Meanwhile, former Federal Reserve chairman Paul A. Volcker, chairman of a task force Obama assigned to study the tax system, has expressed at least tentative support for a VAT.

    "Everybody who understands our long-term budget problems understands we're going to need a new source of revenue, and a VAT is an obvious candidate," said Leonard Burman, co-director of the Tax Policy Center, a joint project of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution, who testified on Capitol Hill this month about his own VAT plan. "It's common to the rest of the world, and we don't have it."

    Seeking New Revenue

    The surge of interest in a VAT is testament to the extraordinary depth of the nation's money troubles. While some conservatives have long argued that a consumption tax would provide a simpler and more efficient alternative to the byzantine U.S. income tax code, this time it's all about the money.

    The federal budget deficit is projected to approach $1.3 trillion next year, the highest ever except for this year, when the deficit is forecast to exceed $1.8 trillion. The Treasury is borrowing 46 cents of every dollar it spends, largely from China and other foreign creditors, who are growing increasingly uneasy about the security of their investments. Unless Congress comes up with some serious cash, expanding the nation's health-care system will only add to the problem.

    Obama wants to raise income taxes for high earners and impose new levies on business, but those moves would not generate enough cash to cover the cost of health care, much less balance the budget, and they have not been fully embraced by Congress. Obama's plan to tax greenhouse-gas emissions could raise trillions of dollars, but again, Congress is balking.

    Key lawmakers are considering other ways to pay for health reform, including new taxes on sugary soda, alcohol and employer-provided health insurance. The last proposal could raise a lot of money -- nearly $1 trillion over the next five years, according to White House budget documents. But options on the table would raise a fraction of that sum. And while it might pay for health care, it would barely dent deficits projected to total nearly $4 trillion over the next five years and to grow rapidly in the future, as baby boomers draw on Social Security and Medicare.

    Enter the VAT, one of the world's most popular taxes, in use in more than 130 countries. Among industrialized nations, rates range from 5 percent in Japan to 25 percent in Hungary and in parts of Scandinavia. A 21 percent VAT has permitted Ireland to attract investment by lowering its corporate tax rate.

    The VAT has advantages: Because producers, wholesalers and retailers are each required to record their transactions and pay a portion of the VAT, the tax is hard to dodge. It punishes spending rather than savings, which the administration hopes to encourage. And the threat of a VAT could pull the country out of recession, some economists argue, by hurrying consumers to the mall before the tax hits.

    A VAT's Bottom Line

    What would it cost? Emanuel argues in his book that a 10 percent VAT would pay for every American not entitled to Medicare or Medicaid to enroll in a health plan with no deductibles and minimal copayments. In his 2008 book, "100 Million Unnecessary Returns," Yale law professor Michael J. Graetz estimates that a VAT of 10 to 14 percent would raise enough money to exempt families earning less than $100,000 -- about 90 percent of households -- from the income tax and would lower rates for everyone else.

    And in a paper published last month in the Virginia Tax Review, Burman suggests that a 25 percent VAT could do it all: Pay for health-care reform, balance the federal budget and exempt millions of families from the income tax while slashing the top rate to 25 percent. A gallon of milk would jump from $3.69 to $4.61, and a $5,000 bathroom renovation would suddenly cost $6,250, but the nation's debt would stabilize and everybody could see a doctor.

    Sales Tax Gains Momentum

    Burman, who helped House Democrats craft an unsuccessful 2007 plan to repeal the alternative minimum tax, said he's received a number of phone calls from lawmakers interested in his idea, though "they can't quite imagine how to make it happen politically." Burman said the 25 percent rate has caused some sticker shock, and he's trying to figure out how to bring it down.

    Graetz's proposal drew an endorsement from Volcker, who last year called it "a sensible plan for reform." (Volcker did not respond to a request for comment.) It also has piqued the interest of Conrad, the Senate Budget Committee chairman who argues that it could be modified to accommodate Obama's pledge not to raise taxes on families who make less than $200,000 a year.

    "I think interest is quietly picking up," Graetz said. "People are beginning to recognize that the mathematics of the current system are just unsustainable. You have to do something. And a VAT has got to be on the table if you want to do something big and serious."

    Still, the Senate Finance Committee declined to include a VAT among the options it is considering to pay for health reform. And even VAT supporters doubt the tax will find a place among the tax-reform proposals the Volcker panel has been asked to produce by Dec. 4.

    Though the nation's fiscal outlook is grim, Burman said "the situation will have to get more desperate" before lawmakers are likely to consider a new levy aimed directly at the pocketbooks of every one of their constituents.

    Most lawmakers are still looking for "a painless source of revenue" to overhaul the health-care system and dig the nation out of debt, Burman said. "Who knows?" he added. "Maybe the tooth fairy will bring that to them."
     
  2. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    Long overdue and I hope this gets implemented as soon as possible.

    Thanks for posting the article.
     
  3. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    FairTax movement has popped up over and over again. They boast that people from the poorest to the richest support this idea.

    One positive would be....less loopholes. Buy something? You pay the tax. No way around it.

    I've seen it proposed as a complete substitute for income tax (which seems to me to be a conservative's dream)....and I've seen it proposed as a substitute for all income taxes except for those who make over a certain threshhold...like maybe over $250,000.
     
  4. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    Well, you knew Obama was lying when he said he wouldn't raise taxes on 95% of Americans... What a load of horse schit. The intelligent among us knew he was full of it. The people that voted for him I guess were just too naive to see it...
     
  5. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Never bought something without paying sales tax? In this article it talks about VAT to services as well as goods. You don't see any way around paying a tax on services? It would be the same as unreported income.
     
  6. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    wait, help me out here. everyone I know who is all FairTax-ed out....who put stickers on their cars that said, "Make April 15th Just Another Day - FairTax" were conservatives. they hit up local Pachyderm meetings and were met with standing ovations.
     
  7. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    no, that's very true. great point. i just think the tax code, as it exists, is the source of a ton of crap....it allows our government to hide all kinds of crappy items in a gigantic code.
     
  8. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

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    you seem to think this will be the end of the IRS. You are mistaken.
     
  9. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    I can't disagree there. I think overall we would be better off with a very simple tax code. When you look at most local tax codes, they simply tax 1% of earnings. No deductions to fudge about.

    My big concern about a Fair Tax is what happens after the it is implemented and the big purchases have all been made. How long will people be saving for, and how long before they start spending regularly. I'll probably leave public accounting if it happens. Income tax is the part of my job that I love.
     
  10. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Contributing Member

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    This would be a fantastic move. We should definitely tax consumption to increase incentives to save money, a situation that could help reduce the need for Social Security over the long term. In addition, this gives "sin taxes" a lot more bite as they could be enforced at the federal level.

    Personally, I would exempt food, medicine, and the first $5000 for each adult and $2500 for each child in a family, meaning that a family of four would have their tax bill reduced by $3750 each year, assuming a 25% rate. These provisions would help to reduce the regressive nature of a consumption tax and would also ensure that the biggest consumers in our society are the ones who are taxed most heavily.

    Personally, I would also exempt used goods in order to create a strong secondary market for products, which I believe would encourage manufacturers to make products that will hold their resale value or are easy to refurbish.

    It is long past time to replace the thousands of pages of income tax code with a consumption tax.
     
  11. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Contributing Member

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    Not the "end of the IRS," but this would definitely reduce the need for the average person to interact with them.
     
  12. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    The us economy runs on consumer spending take that out and its going to get bad.
     
  13. Lil Pun

    Lil Pun Contributing Member

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    So if I am reading responses correctly, most of you are in favor of this?
     
  14. tcadriel

    tcadriel Member

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    I agree it's time to change the tax code. Everyone should pay taxes, rich or poor on anything they buy. It's part of doing your part to help this country be great, great roads, great schools, great health care and great military. The problems is there are so many ways that some get around paying taxes, like businesses, hiring accountants, tax accountants, CPA's. The bigger they are the easier time they have getting around taxes like offshore accounts and outsourcing jobs. Even simple business owners pay minimal taxes by buying personal things under business accounts and writing them off as expenses, That's why they say business owners really own nothing. I know, been there, done that. I personally don't mind paying taxes as long as the economy is doing well. It's all part of being a American and loving your country.
     
  15. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Why are people assuming the Obama admin wants this?

    And why are some of our resident conservatives criticizing the idea? I thought conservatives loved the VAT.

    I don't have a particular problem with it as long as it is modulated to dampen its regressive nature and complemented with a progressive tax.
     
  16. bnb

    bnb Contributing Member

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    Ummm...nope.

    Name me a country that's introduced a VAT in place of income taxes. They pay income taxes in Europe, the UK, Canada, Australia etc. What makes you think this will be different?

    A Vat is separate from income taxes. It may replace some transfer/excise/manufacturing/other taxes -- but you're still going to have to file April 15.
     
  17. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Contributing Member

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    People are not going to stop consuming, they will just be more judicious about what they spend. This will increase savings rates and might even be the path to reducing or eliminating Social Security in the future.
     
  18. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

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    No I am not in favor or more taxes. Internet sites are also anti.
     
  19. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    This is the group I've seen present this the most:

    http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

    I clerked for a judge who took me to some Pachyderm meetings in the late 90's where they were hammering on this...loving it.
     
  20. Major

    Major Member

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    I think only one person is, and that's because he's programmed to turn every issue into an attack on Obama.
     

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